I don't know about anybody else's gyms but the two dojos that I've trained and train at teach you the pins, chokes and locks that you need to do but we aren't taught specific maneuvers to manipulate or control our opponent to get him where I want for a submission. Is bjj ground training like this also? Like I mean are you just expected to figure out stuff on your own?

No, BJJ is not like that at all. Improving position and transitional skills are central to the way it's usually taught.

No, neither martial art if taught correctly is like that. BJJ teaches far more depth into their newaza game dealing with situations not applicable in Judo, but both martial arts have extensive ground work technique libraries that should be mastered before moving into self discovery.

With that said, I've literally been to Judo clubs where they show the students Kesa-gatame and then throw you to the wolves. In the year I trained at this club it's an exaggeration to say we learned more then 5 newaza techniques and believe me it showed.

Teaching Newaza shouldn't be treated any different than Nagewaza.

You have to start with the basics of the technique, how to perform it.
Then teach how to set it up, what positions you need to be in in order to execute the techique.
Then transitions or combinations, what techniques work well together.
This can all be accomplished in one class if taught properly, but that doesn't mean that you will master it in one class, that takes years of practice.

The biggest problem I see with adult students in the US is lack of patience, students expect to learn a technique and be an expert at it by the end of class. They be become frustrated when they can't execute it on their classmates during randori.

Developing good mat awareness and good control and position takes time to learn and and can only get better through randori.

BJJ does not have the monopoly on newaza.

My club is unfortunately like that. I have no idea why. The teachers teach ne-waza techniques and I love them but no one has any interest in practicing them at all. I'm getting desperate and thinking about cross-training BJJ. What else can we do when most clubs neglect ne-waza like this?

The answer is really and truly under your nose - provided uke is beneath you on the ground.

Uke will tell you where to go and what maneuvers will finish him. The trick is to have a very extensive basic vocabulary of pins, chokes, and locks, and then refuse to make up your mind ahead of time about which one you're going to use.
Try this drill: get an uke in kesa gatame. He then starts to fight his way out at half intensity. Whenever you feel force or resistance on his part, simply go where he is sending you. If he drives up under your chin, don't stay and try to keep the kesa. Turn and go with the direction of his drive, and fall into the hold that applies where you've ended up. There are indeed enough holds to accommodate every situation. Always move; never use strength. Pretty soon uke will leave his neck exposed or his arm out, and he's yours. This is way easier than fighting.

I was taught lots of turtle turn overs

I learned sweeps from guard too

that is considered control and manipulation

a lot of that is learned on your own

I mean that is the fun part

Cross train in BJJ. Learn both arts seperately, but blend the two when you fight. I've been doing this for a few years. Look up Dave and Dan Camarillo on youtube. You won't regret it.

I'm not saying don't training in BJJ and I have tremendous respect for the Camarillos, but there are Judo Clubs that can teach you great newaza. I spent two hours last night teaching only newaza, starting with positition and control, defenses, transitions and finally into various submissions. It can be done.

Basically, most judo instructors won't even teach you basic posture in the guard. Sometimes because they don't know it.

If you want step by step instruction, SOME bjj teachers will cater to you very well. Others will teach you a random assortment of techniques and expect you to peace the puzzle together yourself.

Already did. they're great. and Guerrilla Jiu-jitsu is one of my favorite books. Can't wait for volume 2!

X 2.
We teach progressions of skills and combinations both standing and on the ground.

This only happens because you are being taught Judo by someone who is not really a judoist. What he does is half Judo. Judo without extremely advanced newaza, on par with BJJ, is not Judo at all. Judo is 50% tachiwaza and 50% newaza (for simplicity I'm including Kata in both newaza and tachiwaza and excluding atemi-waza entirely).

People sometimes criticize BJJ for having dropped throws almost altogether... Sometimes calling BJJ as crippled Judo... They fail to notice that what most are teaching today is crippled Judo: Judo without the correct emphasis in newaza.

If your Judo club does not do newaza randori EVERY TRAINING SESSION, or does not teach ground transitions, sweeps, thousands of different submissions, then stop training there. This IS NOT JUDO.

A few videos of what is missing in those so-called Judo dojos:






I guess this kind of instruction is exactly what you were missing at your "Judo" class, right?

Wierd, we spend the first half of every class doing newaza.

I wouldn't exactly tell someone to just stop doing Judo if the newaza isn't practiced each class, I would rather have someone learn some judo then no judo. Then move to another club later.

Starting in the wrong path is of the utmost danger! It's dangerous not only to the person in question but to the Judo community overall. This is what builds up "judoka" who despise newaza, and who even think newaza is not as important as tachiwaza, etc. So, it's best to avoid classes where there's not enough emphasis on newaza. You can't spend more time in newaza or in tachiwaza or you'll be doing Judo the wrong way. It does not matter if you don't like newaza or tachiwaza, you have to do both. People should never give black belts to "judoka" who are barely able to stand their ground in newaza...

But (a big but ;-) if you're not really serious about Judo, doing it only lazily and for recreation, then you may do more tachiwaza if it pleases you, but beware it's not Judo, just like newaza only is not Judo. It will certainly do good to your health, but then so will running or swimming will.

Learning only tachiwaza is also not wise in a self-defense or martial-arts sense. For Judo to be effective on the real world you have to be good at both throwing and submissions, sweeps, holds, etc. Learning a hold without the transitions to achieve it is useless!

I know you agree with me, I'm not arguing with you!!! I'm only exploring more my own points...

Move to another club as soon as you find one that teaches newaza properly! If you can't, then go cross-training in BJJ to learn what Judo's newaza was in the past and should have been today... Thanks God there's BJJ, a living testament of Judo's newaza!

I think we're on the same page though, practice, practice, practice

You need an even balance for judo.
The guys that do less newaza are lame.

loudenvier - I was curious as to your thoughts on Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza in relation to this topic. Is this the kind of "Judo" you would like to see? Or is there perhaps a straight Judoka that would be a better example?

Also, do you know whether he considers himself primarily a jiujiteiro or judoka?

Hi, Jacaré knows a lot of Judo, and he is very effective at throwing, at least in BJJ competitions. I once saw him against a judoka (in a BJJ competition) and he completely obliterated the Judoka in both tachiwaza and newaza!!!

The following summarizes Jacaré Judo:



So Jacaré is a Jiu-Jitisuka, and don't consider himself a Judoka, although he started at Judo (14 years old) but soon moved to BJJ.

I think that the converse of Jacaré's to the Judo world is someone like Flavio Canto, who is a "straight" (not gay? ) Judoka, with elite level BJJ skills.

But I still think Canto emphasizes more newaza than tachiwaza (just like Jacaré, but with a little more experience in tachiwaza due to his competition focus in Judo), which is also wrong.

There're 3 people I can think of now that do today the exact kind of Judo I call proper, real Judo:

1) Isao Okano
2) Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki
3) George Mehdi (my sensei :-)

Of course, there are many others...

Kimura did this kind of Judo... Correct Judo...

From the 3 people above, one is often considered the greatest judoist (or one of the greatest) of all time: Isao Okano... This certainly tells us something.

But even Okano had to learn a lesson, being submitted in newaza by Boris Mishenko in 1964. After that it's reported that no one ever got him again in newaza...

Mehdi considers Okano as his brother and his Judo is guided by Okano's. I never did so much newaza in a Judo class as I did at Mehdi's.

Kashiwazaki's mastery of both newaza and tachiwaza speaks for himself.

I understand the 50/50 arguement, but I wonder if it must be so rigid. I'm a newaza guy and consider my newaza skills to have advanced much further than my tachiwaza. I've started to force myself to practice more tachiwaza than newaza, because that is where my weakness is. Just like in newaza I often start on my back, because I feel uncomfortable there.

If we only do what we like, be it newaza/tachiwaza or even only our tokuiwaza, do we ever really grow as Judoka? The same could be said for life (getting philosophical on your as*es!)

Japanese competitors like Kimura sensei used to focus on their tachiwaza... Only switching to other throws (like Kimura did later in his competition career by adopting also tsuri-komi-goshi) when needed.

If you consciously train more tachiwaza because you are trying to improve a deficient point, you're correct in doing so! But you should not forget about your gift at newaza... By reading your post, I think you have a vocation for newaza... I would keep 50/50, let your newaza be better than your tachiwaza... You can't help it... You would be sacrificing your newaza, which you have more talent, for tachiwaza... In time you'll improve your tachiwaza... But that's up to you.. You are still doing Judo, real Judo, because you are using your mind and guiding your learning conciously...

The problem is when a sensei simply gives more attention to tachiwaza (or newaza)... This way he is not teaching Judo properly. That's my biggest problem.

As had been stated, it is for sure only what your coach can teach you.

In my 1st 6 years as a judoka and 3 years of highschool-wrestling what I learned was just the 'spots' to get to compared to when I got to train privates with Olympic wrestlers who were very experienced judoka to begin with. These wrestlers showed me stuff that were a great jump from my intial judo/wrestling game of 'get to these spots'. ...and how to be mean.lol

There, I thought that wrestling was the key as I had done plenty judo and these guys were showing me what seemed to me as wrestling, as nothing really similar was taught to me in judo newaza.

Then afterwards I happened to run into a coach who was from Algeria and has extensive international experience and he knew everything I was taught in newza by the Olympic wrestlers and much more....especially gaurdwork and sub game.

The wrestler judoka showed me turns and scramble positions that were complete news like a new art altogether. But when this judoka later showed me all that and much more, it had clearly shown me how amazingly huge the judo game was and that one can only do the best they can in coaching.

If one is rich and talented they could get the game good, otherwise you gotta do the best you can and that will take alot more prioritizing.