Despite the title being misleading, I thought this was a a fun little clip. Place it in Sir Harry's 'would more people would do kata if kata was done like this?" category

I just love the short appearance of the ninja @ about 55sec.

He came, he got his @ss kicked and that was it....

I'll see your bet and raise you a

^LOL! I think its important to do something that is demo-worthy, rather than just doing drills on the mat...

Unsoku and tegatana dousa are just awesome to watch. Maybe their next video can be the yellow belt grip break drills and perhaps a short warm up routine.

Oh, and that video makes me ashamed to practice Shodokan Aikido too.

Aikido line dancing? I can't believe that anyone would participate in a demo like that.

That was.... painful to watch...
The line dancing that is.
Chewy

That is just plain funny. Is it just me or does there seem to be a lot of slapping in aikido?

Not as good as the karatekas and TKD demos.

The movements are good for tai sabaki though. However, I am reminded that some people should not try to dance. Myself included.

I almost threw up at the line dancing demo. lol

The first clip is good. I like the uneven terrain aspect. Even if it's choreographed, and the uke is compliant, the techniques are valid and they are done with skill.

Once again, I have to comment on the idiocy of the comments made on views taken out of actual context by most of you in this sectional topic. The first video was interesting and the scenic area was more than just uneven. It afforded quite a bit of privacy to perform without collective buffoons observing. The second video was not spectacular and I suspect that none of you commenting have ever done such practice in public! Footwork is a much neglected thing in many dojos and certainly doesn't appeal to mass audiences unless other things are shown. Although I can understand that making fun of things is a standard way of doing things in modern society, and a good deal of humor can help the more stern and serious practitioners certainly, I sometimes suspect that people who indulge in poo-pooing things hope to make themselves appear better and superior by making others appear inferior or stupid or bad,etc. Slapping is a time-honored technique, and if done rightly, can really disarm you. It does not necessarily have to be 'iron-palm' slaps either. There are such techniques in aikido for those of you who think that aikido merely wrist locking, gyaku,etc. and they are often termed 'atemi' but I don't want to do your homework for you! Armchair critics abound but I challenge those of you who are so quick on the draw to produce or come up with something much better. I seriously doubt that your creations and videos will be much more exciting and professional.

Were you in the first, second, or both videos?

Gandalf the White does Aikido!

I don't think anyone is poo-pooing the line-dance as being useless or stupid. I'm sure it's effective and highly necessary in practice. I'm poo-pooing the idea of putting on an aikido demo for the public, which consists of three minutes of that. i mean the point of a demo is to pique peoples interest and showcase the art, not make people run screaming from the auditorium. If you want to show that footwork, don't do it 50 times; do it a couple, then show it in action, combined with an opponent and accompanying handwork. Fireman at kindergarden for show and tell day: 'Well, kids, 90 percent of what we do is polish the rig (takes out cloth and polishes desk), then put our feet up and watch reruns of Rescue Me (puts feet up on desk, dozes off).'Kids: 'Where's the policeman with the gun from last week, we want him back!'Don't make me choke, man!

Hey, to each his own--- but that doesn't mean it isn't funny. Is there tickling in any martial art. I've heard that can be very effective too.

This clip or this sort of clips have been explained and ridiculed to exaustion here and in several other places, i wont bother explaining it again and i will leave you with just one correction to your obvious lack of knowledge on the subject: that is Saruman BEFORE he got contaminated by the all seeing eye. Arent you the guy that trained with diving goggles and body armour to simulate eye atacks and groin shots?

No, but before training I enter an altered state of conciousness so that I can exploit my chi to the fullest. In tournaments ippons happen all by themselves... it's amazing once you are fully enlightened.

The arts I train offer plenty of highlight reel footage, because of the way that they are trained. No disrespect, but maybe we're laughing at the videos because they're FUNNY. I've been a pretty staunch critic of aikido in the past and have softened somewhat, but I think that in the end, the onus is on YOU, not us, to "come up with something better." Peple keep saying "Aikido is awesome." Some of us are simply asking someone to prove it.

This would be a good demo but aikido still looks fake to me...sorry if I offended anyone but its the WWF of martial arts

If you watch actual real judo contests you will see the effective use of judo techniques in a situation where both participants are trying as hard as they can to defeat each other. If you watch wrestling matche, the same is true. If you watch MMA the same is true. I have yet to ever see any competition in which the participants are actually trying to defeat each other in which any aikido technique has been effective. When I see that, maybe I'll change my mind. Until then, the fanciful and mystical stuff just looks plain funny to me. Sorry too if this offends anyone but that is how I see it.

Ive got to tell you that im not offended by anything you or the sweet guy said, if it was me you were refering to, particularly because you havent said anything detrimental of me and talking about the martial art one pratices means as much too me as offending my chosen nba team (GO SPURS!!!!).

I've seen aikido techniques and principles used in mma, judo and street fighting, in most cases i doubt that any of the people fighting (with some exceptions) have ever praticed aikido. There is tomiki aikido that do competitive drills and matches even using a rubber knife, but evne those are limited examples with a limited set of techniques, like olimpic judo rules, that take out a lot of tecnhiques that make judo one of the greatest martials arts ever. the petty is that the fancyfull and mistichal stuff, like you called it isnt neither mystical nor should it be fancy, ive explained stuff about the ueshiba clips for instance and was called a lot of things because people didnt want to understand what i was saying. Its dificult to explain to some people that an 80 yo randy couture wont be pushing students against the cage and dirty boxing them into submission, its also dificult to explain to some people that have asked about control and stuff like that, but say that they train full out and bust peoples nose or ribs, but wont compreend why someone would simulate a strike insted of actually striking someone.

anyway i owe you an apology, i tought you were the user that said to a a while ago that he trained with a ful body suit and swimming googles in order to get hit in the eye and groin to simulate " the street environment"

There is no 'onus' on me to come up with anything,much less having to prove anything to everyone's or anyone's satisfaction,except in some rare instances and not on this forum either. You can laugh and poke fun and comment on things all you want,but sometimes too much verbalization about things misses the crucial points. The motivations of people to produce all these videos, indeed, any and all videos, from professional to amateur, have to be considered. If these things are for their own followers and disciples, all well and good, but it is often a case of 'casting pearls before swine' as this topic seems to confirm. However, going from the sublime to the ridiculous, and vice versa,is a talent only a few real wits possess! The real masters, whoever they may be, if any, tend to have great senses of humor, especially at their own buffoonery! I tend to think that anyone finding themselves in the midst of the practioners and teachers of these things would find themselves no better off than those flopping about the floors, grounds, and practice areas of these most ardent personages!

Promotional Exam?

I think real line dancing is probably more difficult to perform. It was a ridiculous, sad, sad clip.

As for the "Real Aikido Street Fight" it could of just been labeled "Real Aikido".

Ah contraire, I get to practice the exact same foot and hand drills 3 times a week in a university gym room! The kids walking by like to shout out various ninja and kung fu noises, which can be quite entertaining. But having drilled unsoku and tegatana dousa a few thousand times now has certainly made me very difficult to throw in randori. Now if I can just learn to throw other people ..... Well O-sensei, and I don't mean Phil Porter , once wrote something along the lines of "atemi is 90% of Aikido."

Oh, but there is. If you want to call me the proverbial swine and indicate that I just can't appreciate the value of what lies before me, you need to show me why it's valid. I'm not a swine; in the sense of martial arts experience I'm more a pearl diver. I recognize and seek out quality examples of unarmed combat and work hard to add those new techniques to my collection, as it were. You can't fool someone who trains hard and understands the principles at work. You have made a claim that aikido is more effective than what was shown (and to be clear, what was shown was just a silly joke, not intended as a serious appraisal of the art; I think you're aware of that but choosing to take it more seriously than intended). Since you're the one making the claim, you're the one that needs to substantiate it, if you care for the discussion to continue. I'm happy practicing my art and letting you do the same. It's no skin off my nose if anyone wants to train differently than I do. But don't expect me to swallow something without proof. If I said my Badger style could defeat your pitiful judo, you'd say "prove it." How seriously would you take me if I just said "badger style is too deadly" or "the tenets of my art prevent me from showing you." You'd laugh. Which is what we're doing. So either have a sense of humor about it (seeing as we joke about judo too) or offer up some proof. Empty complaining gets us nowhere.

Not defending him or the video clip here, just adding my 2 cents (please dont ban this message like you did with the others if it makes to much sense). The problem with "proving" something to you would require showing a guy in the ufc that didnt have any other training in his life other than aikido win in the first 20 seconds of the match, preferably against either nogueira or anderson silva, examples of quoting sources like police forces, armies, testimonials by aikidoka or non aikidoka about aikido dont serve has "proof" to you, you claim to know something about aikido and mma fighters that did it ( o didnt do it) but you didnt even recognize the aikido kanji in the back of gilbert yvel, or knew that jason deluccia praticed a form of aikido, you care little for the fact that a branch of the metropolitan police in japan still trains a form of aikido has their main martial art, the fact that mike tyson said that yoseikan aikido footwork and taisabaki (he didnt use this word) were very good and he tried to incorporate them into his pratice doesnt serve has proff either, so you are somewhat limiting the field in wich one can prove anything about it.

funny fact: i was just watching "secrets of chute boxe: mma striking" and whats my surprise to see the rua brothers doing irimi into right straight to the face or knee to the rib cage followed by clinch, im not saying that they pratice or have praticed aikido ever, i know they didnt, but its the exact same type of entry we use for a wide array of techniques, and irimi and taisabaki is one of the things my chosen branch of aikido insists a lot on.

its not the fact you care a lot or little about what we do, its just the fact that you do uneducated guesses about what aikido is and you do some very silly comparisons when talking about aikido or martial arts that have something mma lacks (weapon defense for example).

For one, don't put words in my mouth. I have NEVER asked for the ridiculous garbage you're claiming.
The entire argument above is a straw man. I have asked quite simply for a video of an aikido practiioner fighting in some aspect that looks effective. Sure, it's easier to do with MMA; we have a huge body of "evidence." But I can also easily find it for judo, TKD, karate, etc. IF this is such an effective art, show me something that looks interesting and effective. I can find tons of pretty ridiculous things about aikido; in light of that evidence and NOTHING to the contrary, it's hard not to wonder whether aikido is legit.
Just because you see an aikido technique in an MMA video doesn't mean it's aikido. It wasn't trained in an aikido dojo, it wasn't trained in traditional aikido fashion, and it wasn't undertaken with the same mentality, etc. that an aikido practioner would do it. Why do you even bring it up? It is COMPLETELY not the point. And just because some modern aikido dojo incorporates something they find in the UFC doesn't make it aikido either.

Police forces don't use the same "aikido" that I see you advocating. A wristlock certainly does work, but you have to get control of the person's body first. Also; you have to remember that cops have other weapons. The use of any technique by a force that has other options at their disposal doesn't convince me of much. You'll notice that I never make the argument that because the US army trains aspects of BJJ, that BJJ is the ultimate art. The US Army trains pretty poor hand to hand combat. But who cares? They're all carrying M-16's.

Lastly, so what if Yvel has a kanji tattoo associated with aikido? For one, do you want to lay claim to arguably the dirtiest fighter in the sport? Secondly, which of his fights did he use aikido in? I saw an awful lot of dutch style kickboxing, and MMA-style ground and pound. Strange, for a guy who trains MMA....And DeLucia? First off, from what I understand DeLucia's early background was kung fu, and he didn't get into aikido until after his MMA career. And when did HE use aikido in the ring? Show me something!

I openly acknowledge that I'm uneducated about aikido. But no aikidoka can provide the education I'm looking for! You being pissy with me and trying to paint me as unreasonable because you don't have a better argument doesn't help your case.

As I said, I don't care if someone else wants to train a different way. But don't try to sell me on something without giving me proof. I'm a grown man and I'm intelligent; don't pretend I'm some rube that you can just foist untested theories on. Aikido is a pretty art, and probably fun to practice. Until I see some proof though, I'm not trusting it for any true practical purpose.

edit: I hadn't actually watched the first video...

The first video, I'll echo what golsa said. That video was clearly choreographed, but looked "aikido-ish" and actually made me excited about the techniques. The gun defense was great, I liked the movements, etc. Show me where I can learn to use that stuff in a true, realistic fashion, and I'd be ALL OVER IT. That was a very exciting and dynamic video.

You dont know the reality of aikido pratices other of some dojos you said you wer going to go, also i mentioned the japanese police because their use of fire arms is limited when compared to other police forces, you left out the example of mike tyson but im sure you will find some straw in that argument too, there are aikido styles that have randori, and no im not laying claim to yvel or deluccia for that matter what i know is both pratice aikido one is even a 3rd dan in it. and no, to get a wrist lock (wich is not the only wepon in the aikido arsenal but its the more visible in segal's movies) you dont need to get the control of the persons body, thats something other martial arts do, like bjj and wrestling if im not mistaken, you use the wrist to control the persons body or at least body movement.

i never said that if you see an aikido technique in an mma video that they are doing aikido, im just saying that if it works for that it will work for aikido, and the oposite is also true, there are lots of stuff that any smart mma player could incorporate into their arsenal from aikido, the taisabaki alone would add some w's to your coloumn.

aoki did some form of aikido, yoseikan, aikijutsu, etc and he broke the arm of a guy with an aikido technique in the ring, but hey you and others say "he does bjj and mma, that was an bjj or mma technique" the move that sakuraba used on renzo and royler that broke their arm is an aikido technique... i would tell you the name but it escapes me... had a rough day today, traditional aikido dojos or traditional aikido pratice are thisngs that you and me know little if anything at all so dont assume that you know what techniques look like when applied there.

going back to yvel and deluccia, you know why their name came up, like segal, i might respect his skills concerning aikido but i do not like the man and i certainly dont like deluccia much, yvel i think he isnt a good example for the sport or martial arts in general, but then again who am i to criticize, about yvel using aikido techniques in the ring, in his last pride apperance if im not mistaken when he was cornered he did or tried to do irimi tenkan of the corner to get out of striking range ... i think he got it, but i really cant recall.

When you say there isnt an aikidoka that can educate you you are not being pissy and unreasonable? if i said there isnt an mma fighter out there that can educate me wouldn't that be unreasonable? if you mean that those guys that suposedly challenged you and suposedly lost miserably are the people you are talking about, they are bad examples in themselves because if they were true aikidoka they would ask you to try to learn from you, like i have asked other guys to see what i could do with diferent attaks, if they challenged you or provoqued they are hardly good aikidoka or good martial artists for that matter.

no, I'm not being pissy. I'm deliberately trying to avoid it. But your argumentativeness is pushing buttons. How about:
1) I'm visiting a school tomorrow. There is a kickboxing class 9:00-10:15 I'd like to take; however, if it happens to be kickboxing aerobics (which from the website it looks like it might) then I will take the 9-10:30 aikido class before taking the 10:30-12 BJJ class. Fair?
2) You grow up and I grow up and realize that though we might not agree, we can still have a civil discussion about it, with me not badmouthing (which I've been trying NOT to) and you not calling me ignorant over words you put in my mouth (though I'm sure you're frustrated with me).
Deal?

im not frustrated with you at all, you, in the end like all of us, will do what you feel like and say write what you feel like, take the aikido class, if the moves feel fake or unrealistic concentrate on the foot work and the irimi, you will find it usefull no matter what other martial arts you do.

The only thing i have said that you havent was the nogueira and anderson silva reference, nothing else, and i used that has an example, an exagerated example, has for the rest if you read your own posts you will find most of what i said there, if not everything i said. The only thing i mentioned about ignorance was about most aspects of aikido, and you admit you are ignorant about it, pretty much in the same way i am ignorant in nwrestling or bjj and you surelly arent.

have a good, productive training session, even if its kickbox aerobics (its called body combat here... good for workout purposes only) ;)

Which is why I posted it in the first place and not the line dancing clip

I've asked for a believable clip. Not necessarily MMA, not 20 seconds, The exaggeration is what was irritating. What I'm asking for is not unreasonable. What you imply that I'm asking is incredibly unreasonable.

gilbert yvel vs akira shoji, you will have to watch the fight, i didnt find a link i could post, its on pride 34 and its when yvel taisabai's off of the the courner, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k, done at aproximatly 2:00 into the clip ikkyo ura done on an uncomplying partner, by aoky, like it or not those are 2 aikido examples.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44E-lW3aYhM, this one is a sakuraba highlight, the move he does between 3:00 to 3:06 is an ushiro katate dori ude kiri mi nage, if im not mistaken, he ends it with an americana, something i have never done in aikido an im pretty sure isnt an aikido technique, but he gets it after he uses an aikido technique, not principle.

JESUS! That first one is mean! Owww!
The second one was interesting too. See, this is all I've ever asked for. Clearly neither Saku or Aoki are "aikido guys" but those are techniques I'd consider "aikido-ish". Perfect examples. Thank you.

Was that so hard?

... im repeating examples... i had already posted these, or at least the name of the fighters and the events. anyway im glad you liked it.

Hi!

I love the first video, its one of if not the best 'application of aikido' examples I've seen. It really is a great demo footage, and I think the practitioner has very good skills.

Separately....

I find the arguments for and against aikido tiring most of the time. Give it up, accept the limitations of practicing a single art, and give it up in trying to prove 'real combat applications' of aikido.

Real combat should be avoided at any cost. Because it can kill and maim. So lets not look for it eh?

Aikido is a martial art. It gets practised as such. Some practitioners are far too compliant, and make a bit of a mockery of the true art. But in my experience, as an international in five different martial sports and world champion at 3, there are aspects of aikido that I use in conjunction with my other skills, testing some of the moves in competitive sport including judo, MMA, kickboxing, Thai boxing and K1.

Properly taught aikido is as valid as any martial art or sport in application in the street. But they all have limitations.

In respect to footwork, I've been known to spend several hours drilling out various moves....but I wouldn't put it out as a demo!! Don't want to bore my audience...unless of course, thats what they are there for...

Enjoyment is why you should practise....so lets be happy with everyone's choice in what they want to do...but be realistic too...

Just my opinion!

Smiler

You put a hell of a pedigree behind your words, man. I'm a fan. Gotta be honest.
Thanks for posting your thoughts.

When you dive for pearls don't get squeezed. Your crude reference to 'pearls' of course, often called 'mani' might offend some female judokas,but if you dive free-style like those in the South Seas and elsewhere, watch out for sharks and make sure you can hold your breath! Diving for coins might be more lucrative! Anyway, empty whining and complaining can be found on most any website or forum to be sure. Watching electronic images is far from the real thing but everyone seems to think they are seeing the real thing or some scripted movie,etc. kkkkFor those who produce such things, knowing what the general viewer thinks or thinks he sees, can be a most sobering thought but it is unlikely that the producers and practitioners of all these 'critiqued' videos know or even care that this forum has considered their creative contributions to martial arts! Keep up the good work. More fuel for the fires.

The first demo was very good but remember you fight the person not the style...

Here is another video with one of the Shinjido guys (which is Judo with Aikido principles) and he is sparring for charity.

Waki-gatame



Ude-garami (Kimura used ude-garami to do turn-overs just like this one, and finish applying the lock on newaza).

These actually aren't the best examples of Aikido in MMA. However, both Waki Gatame and Ude Garami are taught in Aikido. I don't know why aiki_man called the first "Ikkyo Ura" but it is actually called Rokkyo. The second technique is also usually called Ude Garami in Aikido or could alternately be interpreted as a Kaiten Osae.

The best "Aikido in MMA" clip in my opinion goes to Ryoto Machida in his bout against Kazuhiro Nakamura (how's that for Aikido vs. Judo?). I know Machida has never studied Aikido before, but the Karate and Sumo he has studied have many of the same techniques and principles found in Aikido (though trained with about a million times more aliveness than the typical Aikidoka).

He executes an Irimi Nage/Shomen Ate and an Aiki Otoshi/Gedan Ate here.



Shomen Ate


Gedan Ate

Christian_Zombie,

The video you posted doesn't prove anything... doing mediocre Judo while wearing a hakama against an opponent who VERY clearly has never had any formal training shows what exactly? The kid he was sparring with moved around like he had maybe watched a few MMA fights but he CLEARLY has never grappled or practiced a striking art.

Silly is all that was :-)

Thank you for really understand my post!!! I wasn't trying to show that it wasn't actually aikido, after I've posted it I thought it would look like a little provocative, like I was saying it was Judo and not aikido!!! Ude-garami is pure aikido to me!!!! ;-)

I really appreciated the Lyoto Machida example (after all he is from BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! BRAZIL!!! )

But I can also categorize those throws in judo... I forgot the name of the gedan ate but my sensei Mehdi demonstrated it for me and I forgot the name!!! He also called it a variation of tani otoshi when you don't actually do sutemi... But Mehdi also studied Aikido!!! Go figure...

The Shomen Ate I would really call it a Ko-soto-gari, and a very good one... I know Machida went for a de-ashi-barai, and it would be called that in a Karate competition, but in Judo it was a Kosoto-gari, almost Kosoto-gake (he almost hooked the leg but end up sweeping it...)

The same techniques have different names under different arts, and, also, techniques with the same name sometimes varies wildly from art to art (Yama Arashi comes to mind promptly...)

I called it ikkyo ura because altough his hand isnt on the elbow he does the same type of entrance one would do for ikkyo and also he doesnt use the armpit for the movement but the ribs or side of the body, when he spins he puts the leg in front of the attaker and from there would go to ground control, also he entered with a sort of irime tenkan, so its ura watch at 1:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qPQl3XoLzM . the second technique i have done very few times, ude garami probably, but we ended it with sankyo or rokyo control, so i couldnt really tell.

to be honest i think that the second technique done by lyoto machida would be more of a sokumen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Nnqavto_M , but he does duck under the arm and doesnt do the technique above it so i really cant say. ohh and it seems that lyoto is really lyoto and not ryoto... it appears he got aggravated because people tought he mispronounced his name. Good example tough i didnt see that fight so i missed those moves, nice to had to the library.

Nope, thats just your brain molding what you see to conform to your knowledge of Judo.

The animated clip of Kenji Tomiki performing shomen-ate involves absolutely no foot sweeping, reaping, or gake-ing. Its a lifting type palm strike to uke's chin that creates a backwards arcing motion on the spine. The legs do drive through the technique rather than it being an arm motion, but the technique itself has absolutely nothing to do with manipulating uke's feet with your own.

The Judo throw you're wanting to compare gedan-ate to is probably a gyaku sukui nage type throw, or at least thats what one of my sensei calls it when I do it in randori. However, unlike a sukui nage or tani otoshi, it involves no scooping motion or lifting uke and arcing him over his back. The technique itself is a strike that starts with your backhand facing uke and hitting on his hara, just above his waist line, driving with your legs to bump hips, and rotating your arm to finish with your palm facing uke's hara.

Both techniques literally are striking techniques as they are among Shodokan, aka Tomiki, Aikido's atemi-waza category. These are the first 5 of the 17 techniques performed in Randori no Kata.



After hajime you'll see shome-ate performed as the first waza and gedan-ate as the fourth waza. A technique similar to gedan-age, but done at the breast bone level, is the third technique (gyaku gamae ate, if memory serves). Shodokan Aikido has absolutely no techniques that involve tripping or reaping in any form or fashion. Our form of Aikido always had a close relationship to Judo - the founder was hachidan under both Kano and Ueshiba before creating his own art and was also head of the panel that designed Judo's Goshin Jitsu no Kata. Shodokan is very frequently taught along side Judo techniques, if not full fledged Judo study, because of its relationship to the art. Heck, Tomiki specifically wanted his first set of sensei in the US to offer Shodokan as an art for Judoka retired from competition. Because of this the syllabus has no techniques that you'd find in Judo, but are often found in other Aikido ryu. For example, you'll find a lot of Aikikai guys working on kata-guruma and o-goshi type throws at some point in their training, but these are purposely excluded from the Shodokan syllabus.

I agree that it didn't prove anything, but its not fair to say he was just doing weak Judo in a hakema. He attempted several standing/drive down joint locks, which are very much Aikido things, a failed kote-gaeshi, and used an irimi-nage for one of the take downs.


As for the video's title of "Real Aikido" this is usually promotional stuff from the Realni Aikido bunch, which I believe is mostly run by a sensei out of Serbia. They do train harder than most Aikido guys and put on some great demos, but their way of doing things is very much unique to their ryu.

Because it seems there was some confusion on this, for the record, the Billy Ray Cirus music was added in after the fact for the "Line Dancing" video. It was originally just a horrible demonstration by some UK Aikido group.