Any other examples?



Those are spectacular pictures! Reminds me of the Thaipusam hindu piercing festival -- think the main feature there is the altered state of consciousness that leads to minimal bleeding and reduction of pain. This one has the added component of suspending what is presumably a heavy weight from his outstretched arm -- this seems similar to aikido's unbendable arm feat, though of course without a prop at the wrist. His stance and demeaner looks pretty casual. What are the main features / abilities we should observe from these pics?

What koryu is it from?

Can anyone translate the writing on the banner behind him?



Um, quite the contrary - these unusual 'body skills and training' certainly have been isolated out of Judo. Well, at least in the present day.

Kano was quite explicit as to the content of Kodokan Judo and the methods to be used for training it. If he wanted ki skills to be included, he did a very bad job of letting people know. It doesn't make sense that he would want it included, but also keep it such a closely guarded secret -- he was an internationalist with a mission of disseminating the benefit of Judo to all. If you feel that it wasn't him, but his many students who all dropped the ball in regards to promulating ki-training ... well doesn't that start to reek of conspiracy theory; how could so many, many people all keep so quiet about it?

But I suppose this ground has already been gone over in other threads, maybe we're going around in circles with that debate.

Hi Charlie:

Well actually, the relationship to the Thaipusam Hindu stuff.... and a number of other practices found throughout Asia... is part of the problem that needs to be digested. These "ki skills", in various permutations and forms, are found widely throughout many different Asian practices, indicating how old all of this stuff is. That needs to sink in, about how old and widespread it all is. What you're seeing in this koryu is just a continuation and specialization of body-trainings, not something terribly unique.

In the picture, the heavy weight is related to the ki-skills of the famous One Legged Stand!... same principle, when you boil it down. The skin stuff is related to breathing skills and the "nai ki" training. And to the Kongorikishi gods. And so on. All of these things are interrelated. Just to be polite to the person who gave me the picture, I'd rather not go there, thanks. Well, consider what I said about these just being permutations. For instance, I could say that permutations of these same basic skills are to be found in Tohei's "ki tests" and in his Ki-breathing exercises. Or in Taijiquan's forms and qigongs. Or in Shaolin "Kung Fu". And so on. Understanding that a lot of the physical ki training in a number of martial arts simply represents the various permutations and "here's our secret way of doing this stuff the 'best' way" lifts the veil on how widespread this stuff really is.

Was none of this ever in Judo? Or were the rudiments in, with talk about hara, seika tanden, kuzushi, Taisabaki, etc., but the more advanced trainings never there? Reserved for the advanced? Or etc.? I've discussed a number of possibilities with various people on the side and while we all have opinions, it difficult to say anything definite. There is a bit more information about some of the background stuff and the Judo ties/antecedents from some researchers than is seen on this forum, but that'll come out in due time. At the moment, let's just say that it's unclear one way or the other. Exactly. One thing I'd note is that IF Kano simply reserved stuff for the more advanced levels and didn't publish how to do it, etc., he'd only be doing what all the other Asian martial arts do. We know that Ueshiba did exactly that, too, while claiming he wanted Aikido to "be for everyone". Hard to say, ain't it.

Best.

Mike

Why charlie, why?

lol, I'm sorry Danguy!! I did reconsider several times ... but really, how can you ignore investigating such a cool picture as that? (the originating thread was closed) Such weirdness is one of the old draws to the martial arts, 'the intrigue of the east'. Its certainly a very interesting feature in other martial arts (hence this sub-forum location). Unfortunately I haven't seen much evidence that robust 'ki' skills are attainable enough to be applicable in Judo kata / randori / shiai. Maybe that will change one day.

Mike thanks for the further explanations.

Well, in the first 2 vids of Chen Bing in the Judo and Taiji thread, you can see Chen Bing at about 150 pounds (what, about 70 Kilos?) doing throws with a MMA guy that weighs somewhere in excess of 200 pounds (I've heard varying numbers, but say 210 pounds, a shade under 100 Kilos). That's fairly robust to move him around as well as he does. And there's more to it than just the bit about moving the weight around... the bit I was getting at with kuzushi, etc. The point being applicability. I think there's a positive argument saying it's applicable. Asian weren't enamoured with that sort of training because it was exotic... it had to give an advantage.

So back to my historical thesis for a second. Let's say that there appears to be an advantage (personally, I don't see any doubt about that and I've been a few rounds with people) and that Jigoro Kano had *some degree* of skills like this which he would have known the advantages. Would he toss out the advantages of very traditional Asian martial arts, the very core element in pretty much all of them? That's the main question. (there are a few related questions, but I think some of the experts I'm talking to in other places are better qualified to answer them than on this forum, so I'll leave it alone here). You see the quandary.

Best.

Mike

Take a close look at this video and notice that he isn't using 'techniques' or 'setups'. For example, pause it at 0.04 and notice the position uke is thrown in. It's kinda like what you might get away with if you were wrestling a 12yr old kid.

Except he isn't. Nor does he outweigh the kid by 50% body mass and muscle.

Even factoring into it that uke is only semi resisting....something interesting is going on here for a (comparatively) tiny little man to fling a big guy like that with so much oomph from set positions.

YMMV

It's not judo, it's not koryu. Someone's pulling your leg or they don't know what they're talking about. It's Ema's Physical Training Method, circa 1920 or so. ....... It is closer to the Hindu self mutilation example than you think.

Want to read up on this, go to the source, Ema's book. Reprints for sale. Cheap. Kool pix. Hachiman specializes in reprinting these oddball books, makes good money off them. Think of Dover specializing in woo-woo books.
http://hachiman.com/books/89350-574-2.html


And it's not aikijutsu, it's kiaijutsu. The 'breathing' crowd in Japan sometimes refer to Ema.

Here's the breathless review from the book:
大正から昭和にかけて一世を風靡したいわゆる江間式気合�
のノウハウを伝授する幻の原典を復刻。その基本は腹式呼�
法と禅式の静座法で、さらに熟達すると気合術によって第�
者の霊魂九識を操作することが出来るという。本書にはそ�
実例も多数紹介され興味深い。なお、江間式気合術は温良�
性質の人よりも煩悩執着心の強い人のほうが効果があると�
うアクティブな技法であるという。なお、江間が、横綱大�
が三段目のときに座骨神経痛を一発の気合で治療し、さら�
五十七回にわたり気合いをいれてその霊力を呼び出し横綱�
の道を歩ませた逸話は有名。

I don't see anything unusual here. Chen has his body in good structure when he executes his techniques, that's why it works. The big guy is not very mobile or balanced, which makes him an easy target. With some practice I am confident that I can reproduce the same techniques and results, including the big push. But it is interesting to see this display of grappling skill from arts other than wrestling or Judo.Also the big guy is cooperating.

While it is an interesting clip...and one that's created some excitement among Chinese style martial artists I'm quite sure, please note that the larger "MMA" types are also not really attacking him other than to tie up. Its a very controlled and friendly situation, not unlike most aikido randori one can find on video. We also do not know the quality or experience of all the players involved, which does make a difference.

Chen Bing (the guy throwing) is regarded by many as one of the most skilled Chen style Taijiquan practitioners around today - he is from the Chen village (the birth place of Taijiquan where some of the best TJQ people teach and train) and was taught from childhood by some of the best Taijiquan people around.

TJQ is traditionally largely made up of wrestling/throwing techniques, with some striking and joint locking in it.

Correct. At no time is the bigger guy making any serious attempt to lift or execute a technique. When they meet in the jigotai-like position, the bigger guy is not doing a thing with it; he is not pulling, not changing direction. At one point a soft pull is made, which is very odd. Normally if you would pull with one hand and you cannot lift the opponent, you would use the other hand to do a complementary action, such as grabbing and pulling from the other side or grabbing a leg in order to tilt or lift. This situation is faked, the opponent does not even attempt a leg lift. What Chen does is a simple matter of tai-sabaki. If you properly use tai-sabaki on a large opponent who artificially will continue his action in that same direction, he will fly alright, even more so when unlike in judo, one is not wearing a gi, and one is not holding on to the gi to guide the opponent into proper breakfalls.

Fubo, I studied Chinese martial arts for well over 20 years. I'm familliar with TJQ. What I meant was, we do not know the quality of those whom he was throwing around, and like in most Demonstrations the opponents were not putting forth a realistic effort.

By "players involved" from your post I took it to mean "both" players (including Chen Bing) as they were the only players doing anything in the video. I agree it was a demonstration, thus should not be treated as viewing a sparring session. And yes, it's hard to get a sense of the quality of player being thrown, but then again it's merely a video of a demonstration and not really about how skillful uke is.

I'd definitely be interested in seeing video of that! :)