Lots of discussion lately on nai-ki, internal strength etc. Some of it no doubt confusing but most of it very interesting

If we assume the following is an example of "internal strength mechanics"



have you seen this being taught in judo? I have seen something similar in Cunningham's first gokyo video but I'm not sure if I'm chasing ghosts here or just misremembering.

Does the above clip speak to you in terms of your judo? Or is this something else?

My Sensei has said many a time that your body moves as one and I have seen it on the forum when people ask 'which muscle should I train?' I must admit I like it. :)

Pretty much the same stuff I've learned between Aikido and Judo. The palm pushing exercises were something I've yet to do in Judo, but they are great for teaching the importance of maintaining body structure while moving.

Basic body mechanics and explained by any 1st year student in biology or engineering. Nowt special there so far? So far nothing to do with direct application of ki. The excercise this gent teaches can be taught to ones grandmother. Mechanics and engineering. SO FAR.

BTW this is not criticism of what he does just an observation, I am sure he would agree with me.

Mike

I was never taught this explicitly with exercises and such, but I've understood it this way. I took a short course in wing chun, and they explained the importance of structure for punching, and that was all I needed. I think Judo people develop this "internal strength" naturally and call it "balance".

Mmmmmmmmmm nice post.

Not only balance but how to redirect force back to the floor and make ones posture stronger yet flexible. The best way of dealing with a direct push is for tori to add to the push with a small pull and turn ukes push into a waza that uses ukes own force to defeat himself. Same goes for a pull etc. I dont think Judoka stand around too long allowing such pushes to develop this far. Posture in judo is vital and in the first or second lesson all pupils should be taught shizenhontai it is the basic form of weight distribution and is the fastest posture we have, as bipods, to move into and out of.

Strength in judo is not about taking force but yeilding to it and using it to ukes disadvantage. Posture should be light and flexible and ready to tai sabaki at the hint of action reaction.

Blah blah blah sorry.

Mike

I agree fully and have nothing to add at this point, except: When you understand the "to the ground" mechanics discussed, you begin to learn how a very small shift in posture or foot/leg placement can have a great effect.

I did like how the instuctor on the video seriously lowered his center of gravity/balance when he demonstrated. When I choose to do that, my toris much rather use a wall rather than me. They say the wall just might fall down.

This is an example of body mechanics from a Chen style taijiquan POV. Because it's just body mechanics, it will conform to engineering ideas, as has already been pointed out. Using qi from a Chinese internal martial arts perspective would be very different from this in other styles and would be a lot less obvious. It would be much harder to make the engineering analogy.

So just pointing out that use of qi goes way beyond this.

Ok - engineering.

If force goes down, the ground creates a reaction force up (amazingly enough...called Ground Reaction Force - GRF). As force is a vector quantity, this force must be made up of at least vertical (VGRF). Truthfully, it's probably VGRF and horizontal (HGRF) components, depending on the other guy

Is the manipulation and feeding back into uke of these things "Judo" or not? I don't mean the manipulation of his reflexive actions (push, he pulls, you throw) but rather the forces themselves.

I'd agree with Dave. This is like the ABC's of some stuff that gets fairly complicated as the skills increase. Generally when people truncate the conversation at this point because they "already do that stuff", I like to smile politely, agree with them, and leave them with what they "already know". It's the polite thing to do. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Well, another reason to talk about it at this level is that this is the more visually observable use of qi/ki skills. You can see it on youtube and then discuss it. So you're smart to stick with this type of skill.

For me, the qi work is more about sensitivity than peng, so you and I may disagree a bit about that. But sensitivity is something that has to be felt; it can't be seen. So it's pointless to discuss it usually.

As to people already having it, I would be surprised to see this type of movement in mainstream dojos.

Having said that, i have been taught many IMA-like things in my judo class here in Taipei. But I'm noticing that my judo teachers don't have the detailed vocabulary to describe the movement that you would get from a taijiquan, baguazhang, etc. teacher. The 7th dans in my club do all have IMA abilities but they seem hampered in teaching it by things like the sport environment, vocab, etc.

Just some thoughts.

It's difficult to discuss these things because most of the people that can really do them (and do them well) usually have a "traditional" background and they tend to use the traditional ki/qi paradigm, which is almost impossible to directly transfer to a western-science paradigm. There's actually a 2-sided problem: traditional words and descriptive phrases for qi/ki skills often involve different words to describe the same core concepts within the many different styles; people who try to separate out a discussion of the ki/qi-related skills into English tend to choose different perspectives and translations, depending on their perspectives, skill levels, etc., so they wind up with different terminologies, as well. I tend to go with "show me" and then build a common terminology based on the physical descriptions. Doesn't take long.

I have never seen mainstream dojos with other than someone sporting a few odd skills here and there; no cohesive accomplishment of a pattern of skills. However, it's moving that way. The logic and skills aren't that hard to start off and I know of a number of Aikido and other types of dojos that are now beginning to clinically develop these skills. Since the benefits are obvious, I see more and more people piling on (via other teachers; I'm not interested in getting too involved with wide audiences), so I'd suspect things will change quite a bit in the next 5-10 years. Should be interesting and fun to watch. ;)

Best.

Mike

Spoken like an engineer sir........lol

Mike

He'll be drawing Free Body Diagrams next........

I'll do most anything to foster a productive discussion, though I don't think we're at the stage where I need to crack open a CAD program

I knew it, youre a cad sir, a cad!

Mike

It wouldn't do any good if you did. IME we aren't talking engineering and science here but art. It's difficult to discuss art. Too slippery, too intangible.

Again, the example you provided is body mechanics. It's not really an example of qi/ki training IMO. Taichichuan's push hands is a better place to feel qi/ki skills but that is difficult to discuss, especially across disciplines.

Although I ultimately subscribe to the notion of 'it has to be felt'...if it's intangible (that is, not concretely physical) then it's of little use. It may as well not exist.



Well yes, of course it is. I'm picking a logical point that folks might recognize and then seeing if what I mean is what others mean. The context given was engineering, so I ran with that

If we start talking about mental intent or start using too many domain specific descriptors ... that have no physical reality for most... either the discussion disintegrates or we get in woo woo.

For this particular topic, my interest is primarily 'does any of this look familiar and makes sense based on what you've seen in judo'. I have some videos by Sensei Steven Cunningham that strongly remind me of the above clip but I wonder whether that's because I'm seeing zebras instead of horses lately.

I see what you mean. But this is how you run into "we already do all that" comments. People see simple structure examples and think they're already doing all that "qi stuff." They almost always aren't.

Interesting that you mention intent because that's part of the equation. It has no physical reality, therefore it's somewhat intangible and yet it is EXTREMELY important. Wouldn't you agree?

This shows some of the problem in discussing this. If you don't go beyond the physical, then you aren't really discussing anything but aspects that people feel they have already. If you do go beyond the physical, even into something as simple as intent, then you're getting "woo woo" according to many people.

This is why discussions like this are largely pointless.

Are there any clips of Cunningham Sensei on the web? That might make for an interesting discussion.

Yes :(



Yes and no. Intent must have a concrete, physical manifestation I think. It *must* have a physical reality, even if it is only in the activation of a neural pathway. After all, the world responds to what you do, not to what you wish you had done, no? (Matching what you do to what you wanted to do is a whole other interesting, probably related ball of wax)

As for whether it's important or not....I think it's radically important.

I'm going to post a clip that will look a little...funny. It proves a point on 'intent', I think, without it necessarily being 100% about the issue at hand. Still...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhFlltmQgHU



It's a problem, I agree. Any ideas?



I see where you're coming from...but OTOH...isn't it odd that you and I are both seemingly 'pulling in the same direction' with this?



Not that I know of :(

Hi Dave, thanks for the contribution.

I think the video is nice as it gives people some observable "take-home" points to work with or at least think about. Yes, it is basic stuff. I think in Judo we practise it under tai-sabaki or just, as Hanon sensei pointed out, shizenhontai. (I would be very interested if this is related to Kito-ryu's tai and hontai and especially if C.K. sensei would come along and tell us more.)

I disagree with the gentleman in the video that this stuff he showed is different to what is in Karate. Efficient body mechanics, through use of the body frame and what is described as "ground path", is from what I understand an important part of Karate (or at least what I know as Goju-ryu Karate-do). Now, whether the Karate that a typical person in the West can have access to and observe is of a sufficient level to demonstrate those skills is another issue.

Yes, I too think it's smart to have the skill of efficient body mechanics, no matter the martial discipline, sport or any physical movement e.g. carrying bricks and butchering. However, Dave, I disagree with your point that, in the context of Taijiquan, qi is about sensitivity. I also disagree that qi is all about 掤 peng. (This is despite that qi can be associated with peng. Peng can be performed with the skillful use of qi, but that is not necessary.)

To figure out what the term qi means in Taijiquan, or come up with plausible theories thereof, one should refer to the classical Chinese literature. The difficulty lies in that the same characters may mean very different things depending on context. For example, I'm sure in your study of Chinese martial arts, Dave, you must have come across 天地人 (heaven/sky, earth, human). I'm not sure what meanings you've learned about the three characters in Chinese martial arts, but they can also mean:

1. Large dimension/space; small dimension/space; and even smaller dimension/space, such as the human body.
2. Positivity; negativity; and zero.
3. Variables in old Chinese algebra, similar to the xyz in our modern algebra.
4. Timing 天時; geography or resources 地利; and social or personal interactions 人和.
(Do not think that these usages of the three characters have nothing to do with Chinese martial arts. In fact, the first two are highly relevant to Chinese internal martial arts.)

I seem to have digressed, but I wanted to use an example that is not so controversial. My point is that when we look at certain technical usage of Chinese characters, we have to understand that:

1. It is contextual.
2. It may be based on pre-existing theories or principles.
3. It is for some purpose, like mathematics, medicine and biomechanics.
4. It can change over time.
5. It can be different due to geographical, demographical or (sub)cultural factors.
6. Two people may hold different views, even if in the same context, same time and same place and for the same purpose. They may both be experts in the field.
7. Differences in meaning of a character can exist even within the same text and in some cases the same sentence! (e.g. 道可道非常道)

So what can we do? Study the literature, its sources and other kinds of evidence. Learn the history and the prevailing paradigm at that time. Learn about the people. Learn why did they write and use the literature. Then come up with a plausible interpretation. Hopefully that interpretation will work for you. Perhaps we can test it, using modern scientific theories, principles and methods. It's not easy. It's not an exact science. Sometimes you cannot get a perfect answer. Nevertheless practitioners of disciplines need something to work with, so usually one has to settle for the most plausible interpretation one can come up with.

Back to the character 氣 qi, I refer to the 精氣神 (jing, qi, shen) concept that is in 易學 (yi xue, the study of changes). The concept of jing/qi/shen that has been prevalent in certain fields in ancient China such as medicine was used to explain how does the body work, which was an important part of martial disciplines such as Taijiquan.

What exactly are jing, qi and shen? I have come across a theory, which I will try to explain below. Jing, qi and shen are related, or parts of, our body.

天有三寶日月星，人有三寶精氣神。
(The sky/heaven has three treasures - sun, moon and stars. The human has three treasures - jing, qi and shen.)

The character 精 jing consists of three characters 米 (rice), 生 (life) and 月 (moon, but this character is associated with 肉, meat). 精 jing refers to the physical substance of the the body, formed by what you eat like rice and meat. The tangible stuff - muscles, bones, tendons, ligaments, etc. - the solid substances.

Now everyone is interested in the character 氣 qi. The very first way to write or draw this character is like this:
Click to view attachment
(This picture was from this website, which interestingly has another explanation of the character.)

The three squiggly lines suggest that the thing called qi is fluid and perhaps also gaseous. Why gaseous and not liquid? The lines being not parallel implies that what is depicted is not the flow of liquid. Contrast that with the old form of the character 川 meaning river, showing the flow of water with parallel lines:
Click to view attachment
(http://www.uname.cn/html/dic/7/31_2617.shtml)

Referring to gaseous substances is also a common, everyday use of of the character qi in modern Chinese, as in 空氣 air, 大氣層 atmosphere, 吸氣 inhale, 呼氣 exhale, 閉氣 hold one's breath, 蒸氣 steam, 氧氣 oxygen, etc.

For now, let's just stay away from interpreting 氣 qi as energy. I'm not saying that's wrong, but under this current theory of 精氣神 that I'm trying to explain, qi is referring to just some kind of gas. That is, mainly speaking, the air we exhale and inhale with our lungs.

So we have 精 jing the solid of the body, the flesh, and 氣 qi the gas, the air we breathe. That leaves the liquid part, 神 shen. NBK and I have discussed this before - shen can mean tens of things in Chinese and also Japanese. 神 shen even in modern Chinese is usually used to refer to intangible things such as god(s) and consciousness. However, again we are limiting our interpretation to the current theoretical framework. There are different types of liquid substances in our body. For now let's limit 神 to mainly mean blood.

Here we have classified the substances of the body into solid, gas and liquid. So, our body is a system of flesh filled with blood, with a cavity inside that can hold air. The talk about body structure, "ground path", body frame, etc., is all about the solid stuff. The movements still mainly rely on skeletal muscles, even though the use of which can be very efficient, like using the right muscle groups/fibres at the right time for the right purposes.

In Taijiquan, one should at some stage learn about using the air and blood too. The part about using the air may be quite familiar to a lot of people, in the form of things like kiai and breathing control. What is special in Taijiquan is one system to use all of 精氣神 jing/qi/shen at once.

It is about making your body become a hydraulic machine. Through manipulation of the condition in the lungs, like inhaling/exhaling and holding/releasing your breath to control the volume of air in the lungs and using the diaphragm and movements of the torso and limbs to control the pressure, the body's pressure and flow of blood can be controlled. It is with this skillful use of blood pressure and flow that the Taijiquan practitioner can general force with the body without contracting skeletal muscles. This, in the context of Taijiquan, is what I called the skillful use of qi.

This qi is not exactly intent. It is physical. Of course, what goes on in your mind and the rest of the nervous system to control your body to achieve that is important. However, the above 精氣神 framework in Taijiquan does not need to go into that aspect.

The above theory is currently the most plausible that I have come across on 精氣神 and the use thereof. Note that I have yet to study more about it.

I think you might like my book.

In the mean time, here's a short preview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-UEar-WYEc...feature=related

Hi,

Thank you for this very valuable contribution. You know your onions!

Mike

I appreciate your long and thoughtful reply. That must have taken some time to write up.

But your conclusion that qi is primarily about hydraulics doesn't fit with what I've learned of taijiquan nor does it explain the amazing sensitivity shown by highly adept taijiquan stylists.

The perhaps mythical story of Yang Lu-chuan not letting a bird fly away from his palm shows a highly advanced level of sensitivity as does another story about him handing a competitor a length of string and asking him to slacken the string. Not matter how he tried, Yang kept the string taunt.

I'm not going to argue that those stories are perhaps literally true, but they do point to high levels of sensitivity being developed in the Yang style of taijiquan especially and are not explained by hydraulic theories about qi.

My own training involved learning neigong and actually feeling the mental/physical manifestation known as qi, which I was then taught to manipulate. The purpose of the training was specifically to increase my sensitivity to what I and the opponent do when in contact with each other. That's why I said that qi (training-wise, at least for me) was mostly about sensitivity. In order to actually feel it, you have to be very sensitive and yet the training increases that sensitivity.

I won't bore you with the theory behind it or include the Chinese terms, but it's a fairly easily seen thread throughout the taijiquan classics. I simply speak from my experience learning the neigong associated with my style.

I thought Kaji made a nice run at it, more or less. Qi is not just peng jin (as Kaji said), but peng jin is a part of qi, just as the structural and pressure/hydraulic implications Kaji mentioned are a part of the whole of the body-related skills known as ki/qi. In fact, Kaji appeared to be going for the part of qi that is most easily found in discussions, the "structural" parts... particularly in southern Chinese approaches.

In the structural context, Qi is often defined as "air pressure" (although the hydraulic part that Kaji mentioned is an adjunct to that). It's impossible to really separate out the "peng jin" ("nei jin", whatever) part of qi from the structural part, but really the discussion on JudoForum about "body-skills" has been focussed mainly on the nei jin part, not the structural part (inasmuch as they can be separated). As an aside, the "nai ki" Leggett mentioned is going to contain both the jin part and the structural part; probably the structural part that Kaji is referring to is the more important aspect of the large, stretching movements in Ju-no-kata, but the jin aspects are there, too. They're too complicated to get into in a discussion that is more of a "is/was this skill set in Judo historically?" conversation.

So my personal observations/posts about "ki" in Judo were centered on the much more-easily discussed jin aspects. No need to get off into the evolution of the characters, etc. Hence I posted the URL of a easily identifiable usage of jin skills (which are referred to as ki/qi skills all over Asia; there's no way to eqivocate honestly about that). The discussion about qi, jing, shen is interesting but to argue it fully would again get into things that are far beyond the current level of discussion; they're impossible to discuss on this forum, as far as I can tell. It's just simpler to keep the conversation on basic jin to see what various people know about it, what they've heard historically, and so forth. It's an interesting conversation and it gives a clear view into current perspectives on Judo.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Oops. I just re-read this and realized that Kaji may be understanding "peng" in the generic sense and may not (probably doesn't, given his earlier comments in other posts) understand the confusing variations between "peng", "peng jing", etc., in the sense of the "ki-skills". Kaji, what is called "peng", as in "ward off" is often seen as a structural construct and I should have caught the confusion when you indicated that karate does it, too.

I don't know if it's worth it at this point to get into the distinctions, but it's unfortunate that "peng" can easily be mixed up because in Taijiquan the core jin is called "peng jin". That jin is the basis of peng-jin, lu-jin, ji-jin, and an-jin. I.e., the discussion is about the core jin, not the "ward-off" type application that you will, I agree, find in some aspects of karate (pretty rare in western karate, though).

Manipulation of that jin cuts down on needed Taisabaki and overt kuzushi. I.e., it makes people difficult to throw and makes it easier for them to throw people via the manipulation of the core jin.

Sorry I didn't catch it earlier.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

As a practitioner of Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Judo, I feel the so called Chinese internal martial arts gets too wordy for their own good. Basic explination:

Jin = trained power... like how a top swimmer swims effortlessly, because he has the trained body mechanics and power for his specific activity.

Peng = an slightly upward and expansive type of force - it's more about the direction of the force.

Chi is basically explained as a type of life energy that everyone has and has as much to do with martial arts as the water you drink, because in traditional Chinese medical terms you need it to live, but has no direct relationship to martial arts. Can you become great at Taijiquan without ever hearing the word chi or focusing on it? absolutely. I think a lot of people misuse the word chi when they are actually focusing on intention.

The video as already been said is a demonstration of body mechanics and learning how to transfer external horizontal presure through one's skeletal structure and into the ground. The interesting thing to compare and contrast after studying both CIMA and Judo that Judo shares many of the same principles as things like Taijiquan and Baguazhang. All three aim to make use of yielding and use the opponents own force against him, all aim for leverage over brute strength etc... I think all decent martial arts would want to conform to similar principles as I believe martial arts are more about finding the most efficient way to complete the combative task with your body then to create esoteric differences.

One huge problem with most Taijiquan and chinese martial art schools in general (that could learn from Judo training) is the lack of regular sparring against non-cooperative partners - push-hands training in most schools do not count. So a lot of "internal" martial arts schools develop these very refined body mechanics outside of the context of actual fighting, which become of little use in a actual fight.

One of the good things about the internal martial arts is that there are specific training methods with one person or partners to develop attributes and power/power generation methods specific to martial arts that are very useful to someone that can actually fight.

Judo on the other hand probably shares all the same principles as something like Taijiquan and puts them into practice in Randori. In a typical judo school there maybe be a lot of exercises for attribute development like pushups, situps, squats etc... but I believe that the exercises in the Chinese martial arts would be very useful for Judoka as they develop many of the attributes of power, sensitivity, retaining correct body mechanics throughout ranges of motion and movement, building intention etc...

I think both Judo and Chinese "internal" martial arts have something to offer each other - I hate the word "internal" - I think getting rid of it would be one step in the right direction for Chinese martial arts.

Nice post, fubo. I'd say that "internal" and "external" get kind of overused, but possibly because practitioners feel they need to make a distinction between body structure and power generation that make use of more subtle processes (such as cross-body winding and mass shifting, spine and dantien "accordioning" and stretching, etc.) than just balance, leverage, and chambered hip torque.

I suppose the former dynamics are more "internal," or internalized (maybe a better word?) than the more overt and obvious practices of forward momentum and body-dropping combined with the chambered hip torque to generate punching and kicking power.

From what I've seen of contemporary taiji practice, few people seem to train martially with "randori" and freestyle. Yet, I believe that the very nature of internal power lends itself nicely to randori with resisting opponents. And as for judo, man, if judoka learned some of the taiji internal basics, it would give them a great edge. As a person who loves judo and also trains the internal stuff, I have to say that it gives you a genuine edge. Effortless and subtle body movement takes the place of the muscling you see so much of now in competition judo. It's really too bad, since judo is descended from jujutsu, and some of the koryu jujutsu systems themselves contained powerful internal body skills, perhaps originally derived from weapons applications.

Put it all back into judo and see where it takes you.

One more from the same lot as before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NznIJGakGJw

Hi Fubo:

I'd disagree (politely) with that definition. The traditional definition of "jin", in the contextual sense of IMA's is usually something like this:

http://taijiquan.quanxinquanyi.de/index.ph...s&Itemid=18 Technically that definition is not inaccurate, but it's not really very clear in its distinction between a normal force and a jin force. The jin force can be applied, changed, etc. with no movement of the body, or even while moving the body in a contradictory direction. But assuming I'm correct for the moment, you can see why many people read/hear a lot of these definitions and say to themselves, "Oh... I'm already doing that". I.e., the room for misunderstanding is great. Well, chi/qi/ki is such a catchall term that this is a semantics discussion I wouldn't want to get into. In terms of the body skills, qi/chi/ki refers to a specific thing though (or series of things that work as a whole). I've seen attempts to simply do away with the term, but I've never seen an attempt that I thought succeeded (my own attempts included) because the grasp of the whole interrelationship gets missed by the attempt. I don't like the word "internal", either, but mainly because it is so frequently misused and misapplied. A proper "internal" martial art seems to not be any different from an "external" martial art except in the way that the qi/jin is manipulated and used in the art. An "external" martial art uses "neigongs" ("internal exercises") although sometimes with a different emphasis and approach than the "internal" martial art uses its exercises for the same core elements.

Best.

Mike Sigman

This is what I have gather from training with a bunch of different people and practicing myself, and reading.

As for "Jin" it may seem like a different kind of power because it's the product of a combination of correct body structure, losing excess tension, intent, which is the trained power of Taiji for example - swimming may require a different kind of power, but for swimming, it's efficient power + body method etc... is it's jin. I do not buy that it is some kind of stored up power in the body that only IMA people have, but that it's the result of correct structure etc...

As for Chi, it's not a topic that's too interesting as if you ask 100 people their definition, you'll get 100 different answers. I think some people use it to describe that heavy feeling you get after doing zhan zhuang and form for a while, believing their chi is getting stronger, but I don't believe that.

I don't like the "internal" label because i feel it's inaccurate cause it excludes other arts (and even practitioners of so call "external" arts) that share the same of similar principles. I believe "internal" is based on the principles the art is built on - so in reality if a person follows thoughs principles regardless of the art he practices he could be counted as "internal", so it's really about how the individual practices. I've met plenty of taiji people which I would not consider "internal", and i 've met quite a few so called "external" martial artists that show the embodiment of what "internal" martial arts hope to be. Plus, the label "internal" is only a recent and poetic invention by people like Sun Lu Tang to group a few arts together that shared similar principles, but in no way excluding many of the Chinese martial arts out there - before that, arts like Taiji etc... were just "martial arts" like everything else.

I don't think there's anything in what I said or what Chen Jumin said about "some kind of stored up power in the body" being a definition of jin. However, as I said, Chen Jumin gives a pretty traditional definition/explanation, but everyone is free to believe what they want.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

From my understanding, in Taijiquan qi and sensitivity are two separate things. A term associated with sensitivity is 聽勁 (ting jin, literally meaning "hear jin"). Although the character jin is used here and jin is related to qi, "ting jin" itself is not directly associated with qi.


You seem to be talking in the realm of 氣功 qigong. I cannot discuss about that in detail, for my understanding in that field is rather incomplete.

Dave, as a friendly reminder, I would like to point to you two sentences from 道德經. I hope you'll appreciate them.

持而盈之，不如其已。
揣而銳之，不可常保。

Roughly the message is that it is not desirable to try grasping too much of something or anything, especially too tightly. Also, if you overly sharpen something for example a tool, it wouldn't last long. In your practice in qigong, I sincerely hope that you bear that message in mind. If you want to discuss further, feel free to PM me.


If the term qi in Taijiquan is indeed about sensitivity, that is something new to me. Please point me to the passage in the classic text so I can have a good look.

This is why I don't get into the semantics discussions that much... too much has to be conveyed by context. My "ting jin" is OK... I can touch someone (often just on the fingers) and tell their balance, their areas of tension, and so on, so I'm not just theorizing about ting jin. I also use it while moving, so it's not just a static skill. But that ability to listen is a result of the progress I've made over the years in using jin skills. Jin is considered to be the "physical manifestation of qi".... i.e., jin-qi is part of qi and gives you ting jin, so a circuitous argument *could* be made that qi development gives you sensitivity. Not that I personally would ever make that argument, because I wouldn't. But now you see why I avoid a lot of discussions about "terms" when contextually my appraisal is that the speaker doesn't fully understand the subject. It just leads to nothing but useless cracker-barrel talk.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

The 掤 peng that I know of is one of the 十三勢 (thirteen mechanical concepts). If there is another type of peng, what is the Chinese character? The same one? In which Taijiquan classic text is that mentioned? Or is it a new concept created by recent practitioners? What does "ward off" mean?


I disagree that the core of the 十三勢 in Taijiquan is 掤勁 peng jin. It should be 中定 zhong ding. This is consistent with the central principle of Taijiquan, "oneness".

What is "western karate"? Karate is Karate. If some discipline is practised without adhering to the principles of a particular school of Karate, it is not Karate. On the other hand, a certain Karate school might be practising a kind of Karate but not at an advanced level where one can see efficient use of body structure and mechanics. That does not mean such efficient use of body structure and mechanics does not exist in Karate.


中定 zhong ding as the core of 十三勢 does make it more difficult to throw the person and easier for that person to throw others.

The character you use is correct, but the meaning is idiomatic. In other words, someone knowing the word "peng" doesn't necessarily have any idea what it connotes in Taijiquan. Peng jing is the nei jing; from it come peng, lu, ji, an... the directional expressions of the core nei jin. Those directional powers, extended in all directions, give the fuller meaning of "peng jin" when it is used in the full sense. It is that balance of powers that is zhong ding (central equilibrium). So "central equilibrium" refers to the balance of jin-powers (not force powers; it is done without tension). Central equilibrium is key, but it itself is based on peng jin. That's not a debate; that's simply the way it works and I didn't learn that from books. Good point. Go tell that to some sixth dan on a karate forum and he'll begin to moderate you out of existence, though. Another good point and quite true. And the implications are broad. Well, I dunno. Technically that's true, because the admonition is to "stay balanced in the six directions", which means that your jin is balanced in all directions (which gives zhong ding), but in reality you have to generate a jin direction that "harmonizes" with your opponent's forces in such a way that his own force dumps him in an "empty" area. But I won't cavil about that since it's off-topic.... and it seems to be a bookish point more than anything else.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

I was not trying to put words in your mouths, just thinking out loud. I suppose my beliefs are more in line with people like Tim Cartmell's school of thought.

Good training!

Good post, Fubo, and welcome to JudoForum!


I think that describes the general usage of the term 勁 jin in the collective group of Chinese martial arts. In that sense one can say that there is a spectrum of types of force generation with the body, with 勁 jin on one end and 力 li on the other. An extreme example of li would be pushing something with brute strength, which is natural for an untrained person. An extreme example of jin would be an acute acceleration of an opponent's body through the use of the body's fluid mechanics without exerting strength with skeletal muscles, which requires many years of training and a deep level of understanding. All other kinds of force generations can be anywhere in between. They could be called jin or li. What one calls a type of jin may to another person be just li.

Now that was for Chinese martial arts in general. In Taijiquan, there is a specific distinction between li and jin.

力 li is exerted away from a point. It is linear and uni-directional. (Of course, technically it should be bi-directional, with a complementary equal force in the opposite direction.) As li is exerted from some point, the further the li goes the weaker it gets, e.g. pushing someone with an arm that is almost totally outstretched (without using the rest of your body). And as I've mentioned above, that li will and must be met with an opposing force back to the point of exertion. For example, stand straight facing a brick wall and push it with all your might - the wall will push your body back until you stop trying to push or until your body moves back (or falls back) so much that you cannot push the wall anymore. The brick wall is capable of exerting greater li than you. (Of course, the wall won't push you unless you first try to push it; and the wall will push back only as hard as you push it, though it is capable of pushing harder.)

勁 jin is exerted inward toward a point. It is three-dimensional and multi-directional. Imagine an inflated basketball. Any number of forces can be applied to the centre of the ball in any direction or all directions. The stronger the forces towards the ball's centre, the higher its pressure and the stronger the opposite forces it can exert. That is jin. For an experiment, try clinching your fist very hard. Use your other hand to feel how the back of your fist swells. That would give you some idea of what jin is about. Of course, the aim of jin is to have your core body use it so that you can perform Taijiquan techniques and movements with effective and efficiency.


My understanding is consistent with the point that peng is a type of body mechanics involving force exertion with an upward direction. However, if you bring in the word "expansive", that may not be specific to peng. Firstly if "expansive" is referring to the type of body mechanics involving force exertion with an outward direction, that is more the realm of 按 "an". Secondly "expansive" can also be referring to the equal and opposite force that comes with squeezing a high-pressure object (like in my description of jin above).


The qi you referred to seem to be 元氣 yuan qi in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM). Please note that other types of qi in TCM include 宗氣 zong qi, 營氣 ying qi and 衛氣 wei qi. I would agree if you say yuan qi is not directly related to Taijiquan. However, zong qi is, or is directly related to, the interpretation of qi in my earlier post.


Yes, intention has more to do with the Chinese character 意 yi, which is a term also used in Taijiquan. The Chinese people in the old days are very specific with their usage of characters. If they wanted to mean qi they used the character qi; if they wanted to mean yi they used the character yi.


Push-hand can be done in a non-cooperative manner. The things one do in push-hand can be extended to striking and, obviously, sparring. I think you're right in that most schools don't do them.


I think that is generally true. However, do be aware that one's training in Taijiquan may at some point leads one to practising things that is not consistent with the core principles of Judo (or at least the mainstream school of thoughts in Judo), for example the central concept of 柔 ju.


I guess one can retain the classification "internal martial arts" if a very specific definition is made. I personally would classify a style of martial arts as internal martial arts only if it makes use of not only the solid substances of the body, but also the gaseous and liquid ones. Based on this, I do classify Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan as internal martial arts.

Some people may think that the three disciplines are very similar, to the point that outside of their "outside technique stuff" they are the same in terms of their "internal stuff". My understanding is that they are not. Amongst the three disciplines they do have different and distinct core concepts. Concepts that makes Xingyiquan Xingyiquan and not Taijiquan or Baguazhang. I don't have a good understanding of Xingyiquan and Baguazhang, so I cannot discuss too much about them.

I would just like to add that the statement is quite meaningless, with an example: "A sufficient intake of vitamin C is important in maintaining a healthy body. To be fit and strong a body needs to be healthy. Therefore vitamin C gives you fitness and strength."

The Chinese people in the old days are specific when it comes to using terms for their disciplines. If they want to refer to 內勁 nei jin, they will use the term nei jin. Why would they suddenly invent a second definition of 掤勁 peng jin and use it when they want to mean nei jin? To create ambiguity and confusion?

中定 zhong ding per se is not about a body exerting powers in multiple directions. It is more to do with "oneness" of the body.


You seem to be talking about 引進落空 yin jin luo kong, which is something completely different from zhong ding. It is recommended that one has achieved zhong ding before trying to yin jin luo kong, but that does not mean the two things should be mixed up.

There is certainly qigong/neigong in the Yang derived styles that I do. That's why i clearly referred to this practice as neigong. What I'm saying is that working directly with the qi gives rise to the sensitivity used in push hands, etc. It's an important part of the training.

For the sake of sanity and brevity I'm skipping over tons of terms and theory because I don't think this is the place to discuss it.

?????????This is why I don't get into the semantics discussions that much... ???????????????? read: Caught on open ground, Mike Sigman heads for the hills...



Read: Kaji pops a soft left jab at Sigman.

Oooh, dueling Ki Masters........ I am sooooooo going to enjoy this. As long as it's in an appropriate thread (Truth in Advertising!) Kaji's tried quite a few jabs at MS, who's ignored all to date.

My money's on Kaji.

Fair enough. I'd just like to point out that one can practise Taijiquan in conjunction with some style of qigong. That does not make Taijiquan as comprising things in that style of qigong. We should be careful of bringing terms and concepts from qigong into Taijiquan. By all means, if it is useful to your Taijiquan practice, you may want to use it, but I suggest not to confuse the terms.

What is often referred to in qigong is 氣感, roughly translated as "qi feeling", which a practitioner would feel at certain stages of qigong training. Many people will talk about the flow of qi inside the body. What I tend to think is that something physiological is happening, e.g. increasing flow of blood to certain parts of your body, increase in metabolic rate, certain organs working harder than under normal conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the physiological phenomenon leads to increased sensitivity of the skin, from which you could benefit in say pushing hands. I can see how the term qi is used in that respect.

That kind of usage of the character qi is indeed different from mine in the earliest post, where I restricted it to Taijiquan (or my understanding thereof). Conclusion: we have here two (maybe more) usages of the character 氣 qi. Nothing wrong there per se.

My personal preference is to, since English is the language here, stick to using modern English to explain things as far as possible. Only when some concept is so foreign to English that there isn't a suitable English term for it would I bring in a term from another language. In that case I would try to 1) define the term; and 2) make sure my proficiency in that language is sufficient for using that term or be able to find reliable sources that can help me use the term in an accurate manner.

How are you doing, Dave? I read in your blog that you were taking a Chinese course. How's that going? I think it's a great idea that you're learning more Chinese so that you could read more on Chinese martial arts and have an easier time in Taiwan. How is it over there? Are the people there excited about the Olympic Games too?

No, there are many idiomatic ways the words are used in the various martial arts, Kaji. And everyone with any real background in these arts knows it. The same thing happens in the Japanese arts with kokyu, kokyu-ryoku, reiki-no-ki, kei, and so on. You're saying something that is not true. Taijiquan uses "peng jin" to describe the generic term "nei jin". Most people know that. First of all, I didn't say "exerting power". You extend jin in "the six directions". Jin is not a force in that sense. You obviously must have been thinking that zhong ding has something to do based on normal balance, which is what a lot of beginners think. Zhong ding (central equlibrium) is the equilibrium of jins. You didn't know that, so you offered the opinion that zhong ding comes before the need for peng jin, but without peng jin you cannot have zhong ding. Now you know. I'm not going to continue debating a very basic conversation with someone who is trying to insert what he read in a book somewhere as his half of the argument. At best you'll have other people who also don't know, like NBK, jumping in and saying you're right even when they don't have the foggiest clue. To a number of skilled CMA'ers who are also reading the thread, it's obvious that you're arguing from half-understood theory.Regards,Mike Sigman

Heh. The discussion on zhong ding ended everything. He's trying to argue words and I'm telling him exactly how things work; he didn't respond to that part for a reason. Just to keep me from having deeper and darker thoughts about some of the ethos I've been witnessing lately, I'd suggest another line of *attack* be used. This one just went down in flames. Mike Sigman

"An" is downward Kaji. As I mentioned a few posts back, you're confusing the general outward/expansive "peng", with the individual usages of the nei-jin-called-peng-jin (don't ask me why they do it) in Taiji: peng, lu, ji (that's your "squeeze"), and an.FWIWMike Sigman