Hi,

I'm looking for Judokas in the Montreal area who would be interesting in sparring/throwing together.

No strikes. Judo rules should be fine. I don't have a kimono, as we don't practice in one, but I can go buy one I guess.

Want to see how taiji fares against Judo. As you guys go to the ground all the time, it should be a challenge. Likewise, I think there could be some interesting exchanges.

I don't practice the fluffy type of taiji some of you may be thinking of. Hoping for some interesting intense practice, in an environment of sportsmanship.

Please contact me or pass the message for all those interested.

Is that a reply? Not sure what the icon means.

You should find a local Judo club and try it out! Explain your situation to the instructors and I'm sure you'd be welcomed and might even want to stick around.

this is ridiculous.

Good advice.

As for raleigh, I just was in a Raleigh a couple of days ago. Wish I was there to talk to you in person. You might just be surprised - or not.

Dont think of the crappy taiji that millions of people of doing.

As for insults, martial arts talks on the mat.

Cmon guys why the hostility ?
What is Taiji anyway ?
There are Judo clubs everywhere, go and try it out !

LOL, this is a new angle, maybe I will try this on some other boards.

For this kind of special challenge it is simply easier to find an opponent on teh interwebz.
Just walking into a judo club for a class would not do justice to the potential worldwide impact of such an epic event.

If you're in Montreal, you're lucky, as you may have the opportunity to train at one of the top clubs in Canada.

Check out the Shidokan Judo Club. Happy training!

http://shidokanjc.ca/

You must be new to martial arts.


Martial arts don't talk on the mat. You beat them on the mat. You TALK all about it off the mat.

What is taiji?

Derivative of Wu Shu and kinda Tai Chi like.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1903613147721661057 This is not in english; there are other related videos once there.

SD,
Last time I checked, judo players weren't wearing kimono.

Thanks., but how does that relate to judo?

I would have referred to this as straight tai chi (Cheng style which is a derivative of Yang style) since the guy in the video seems to be the famous Huang who was a student of the very famous Cheng Man Ching. Huang was supposed to be very good; the problem is that his students are almost certainly jumping. Whether they are doing it consciously or unconsciously (probably unconsciously), this is a common disease of softer or "internal" martial arts that really ruins their credibility. You see the same thing in the clips of Ueshiba after he got older where some of the students are jumping before he even touches them. People look at it and become dismissive of the whole endeavour. For a better comparison, look at the youtube clips of Cheng Man Ching who very likely remained superior to Huang. Not so dramatic since Cheng's students really are being pushed and not just jumping.

Speaking from experience, the vast majority of tai chi practitioners, even the serious ones interested in it as a martial art, are easily thrown by a judoka. They are very susceptible to foot sweeps and especially kouchigari against the lead foot. However, if practising against one of miniscule minority who actually has a decent level of martial arts ability, that is, someone who has a good "root" (a relaxed sinking of the weight, which expert judoka also demonstrate to some degree but it can seem quite extreme in a good tai chi practitioner) and good "fa jing" (defined here as an explosive type of pushing that seems to require no effort; but how much of it is just an extremely fine sense of the opponent's balance?), then it may be a different matter. In my experience, it is like walking on a knife's edge. If you miss your throw, you could find yourself hurtling backward and taking a very hard fall. But the miniscule % capable of doing this usually don't post on the internet looking for judoka to test themselves against. On the other hand, maybe you're the exception.

A conversation from some time ago:

Me: "Hmm, what do you mean Chinese martial arts are more practical? Don't most of them suck?"
Him: "Well, we Japanese like to look good when we practice martial arts. This is why we have keikogi."
Me: "I still don't understand. How is this more practical?"
Him: "They don't care how they look. When practicing martial arts the Chinese will wear just any old thing."
Me: ?????



And it just clicked.

Thank you very much. It's the perfect info I needed. If ever you're looking for info yourself on internal styles, I would be happy to return the favor.Gi, Kimono, clothes. my mistake.

I agree that the majority of taiji people lack the real internal skills. Too many granola-y teachers teaching the floaty, meditative park exercise, but with no clue of what internal dynamic is/was supposed to drive taiji movement.

A true taiji adept can't be swept from the front foot, or entered deeply to take the hip and rear leg, because he can shift his center. You go to sweep his leg -- no matter which one -- an WHOA! There's no body weight/mass on that leg; hence, nothing to sweep. He is shifting his body mass diagonally/cross-body and can counterbalance himself without committing his mass. He can shift it at will, inperceptibly. Kyuzo Mifune also knew how to do that, which is why it was so #$^& hard to sweep or throw him.

New, old, does it matter? I really am not too sophisticated. Please come to Mtl. Or let me know where you practice! :)

Montreal Zone starts on page 9.

Take your pick.
http://www.judo-quebec.qc.ca/IMG/pdf/Reper...c17juin2008.pdf

Thanks - Merci. Exactly what I needed.

Yeah, right.

This idea that a "true taiji adept can't be swept" is a joke. Shifting your center isn't going to matter when a judoka throws you on your ass because they have waaaaaay more practical experience than you do.

There is no perfect art, not taijiquan nor judo. Most everything is relative to who you've meet and what both of you know.

Dave,
It's not the art that is "perfect" or "imperfect," but the practitioners, including teachers, who make or break it. Like I said, taiji is full of incompetent people who did not or could not receive the internal aspects sufficiently. But I have trained with people who did have the skills, and they not only could not be swept or thrown, but also could dump you on your as AS you were entering to attempt to sweep or throw them.

And no, I don't expect you to take my word for it, since you don't know me from Adam.

But get out there and find out for yourself. If you were to meet someone like Liu Cheng-De, a Chen taiji guy, you might have a different opinion. But barring traveling to China, you can find guys in the States who have comparable skills. There is a lot of buzz going around the 'net from guys who have met and trained with these people, and their perspectives have been changed forever as a result.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWBBhVLbDgk

That was from a standing position with the other guy obviously pushing against him very, very hard. Judo guys call this uki otoshi and we do it while moving. Nothing special in that video - just some good old fashioned tai sabaki at the right time.

Well, I meant it only to show that there are indeed some relationships between Judo and Taiji, although I think it's impossible for someone to gauge just how powerful Chen Bing and his middle are. Most of the Chen-style throws aren't meant to be that gentle for uke and of course training specializes around being able to release power up close also, so there are differences like that to be considered also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

FWIW

Mike Sigman

I've met some taiji guys who could do some interesting things (including Mike Sigman, who posted the clip above), but I've never met one who claimed that a taiji expert could not be swept or thrown.

Taiji is not magic. It's just another form of physical and mental training. Taiji experts remain human, and make mistakes, misjudge timing, get faked out, overpowered, etc., just like everyone else.

But the so-called "internal arts" like taiji are definitely real martial arts and very interesting indeed.

I live in the San Francisco Bay area (California, USA), Cahills Judo Tuesday & Thursday. Elsewhere on M,W & F. I was last in Montreal in October 2007 for the Rondezvous Cup International Judo Competition. I do not know if I will go in 2008.

As to new, old or does it matter, not if we win on the mat. We will talk about it off the mat, not on the mat. It is more fun to mouth off off the mat.

I see lots of opinions by people who do Chinese internal martial arts about this or that. CIMAs are my background, too. I've spent the better part of ten years devoted to them.

But while they are great, people need to give judo it's due too and I don't see a lot of that in judo vs. taiji discussions.

The main problem is that (us) CIMA guys post lots of clips of static practices, demos, etc. and talk theory all day long. But things look VERY different in randori.

It's easy to say "yeah, this taiji guy can't thrown" or whatever, but no one is really interested in getting out there and trying it against any resistance. That includes members of the Chen family mentioned on this thread. It's pathetic.

High level judo people are no joke. I'd put any of the 7th-8th dans I train with here in Taipei up against any taiji guy out there.

Taijiquan and other CIMAs are great. I love them. But we need to be extremely careful about overestimating our abilities against high-level judo people in randori. Doing randori opened my eyes to what I really knew about throwing, from taiji or otherwise. If people think it's so easy, then go out and try it then report back here.

This is a good example. For those that don't know, Chen Bing is seen as the "great taiji hope" who can supposedly do his stuff against fighters. And this is obviously being put up as some sort of example of his expertise.

Thing is, every single one of the black belts in my judo club can throw people just like that given a perfectly non-resisting partner. And no one in my judo club is famous.

And this brings up one of the major differences between judo and taijiquan. Throws like what Chen Bing is doing wouldn't be considered anything special in judo, they're just good basic stuff. They're a given, not an exception.

1/
That's not uki-otoshi

2/
The guy was not pushing hard. He was standing there.

3/
Whilst I agree that a good judoka can throw someone with high collar circular hiza-guruma (the closest throwing action to that throw...perhaps some varieties of ura nage have that overall rotation pattern, in another orientation, too) just as hard from such a static position...you've gotta admit...that was kinda cool.

I wish youtube had slow mo function and a zoom function. Something interesting happens between 0:03 and 0:05 that I can't quite make out in terms of power generation. Normally, you would see someone's hips move first for a hiza guruma but I think I see the upper body move first here. I dunno

Chen Youze is in the San Francisco Bay area right now. I think it would be interesting for any high-level Judoka to go play with him. I don't know how much experience you've had with the actual Chen Village guys, Dave, but it's a different ballgame entirely when you get to the national-level champions like this. If you're picturing a sort of randorii with gi's where a Chen guy would have to give up half of his abilities to play, of course that would be something different. ;) Don't forget that in Chinese competition they don't allow the Chen guys to use the shaking power because it's "unfair" to others.

Best.

Mike

I'd think that Liu Cheng De would also be a good choice of CIMA person for a judoka to cross hands with. He occasionally comes to the U.S. under the sponsorship of a bagua guy who has trained with him, I think.

I've been around the fight game for many years and have never met anyone who could not be thrown, submitted, knocked out or beat down on any given day.

Train how you want.

But there are some unalienable truths about human physical confrontation that can not be denied.

Internal arts are kind of like Voodoo and witchcraft, they only effect those that believe in them. If you do and they help you, good on you, but don't think just because you know and understand them, any given opponant you face gives gives a rip, and that puts you at a distinct disadvantage.

If your going to go through with waltzing into a Judo dojo, or any other training hall, and trying your taiji on some unsuspecting person, I would bone up on my insurance if I were you.

My best advice would be to go to a dojo and learn what Judo is all about first, then decide if you want to pull the taiji card in randori.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.

I can appreciate the fact that there are many degrees of skill in any martial art. The "winner" is often more to do with the person than the style, but in terms of "internal arts are kind of like Voodoo and witchcraft", that's fairly insulting or at least indicates you've never seen anything but somebody pretending that they know internal arts. As I said in post #33, Chen Youze is in San Francisco right now. P.m. me and I'll give you the contact info for his workshops so that you can go.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Remember the last time you have tried to set up a match for Bill Mahoney with the tai chi guy in Boston?
How did it go...?
Do you want me to dig out that thread?

Do what you want, Tomas, but try for once to contribute something to a thread besides your constant nastiness. Even one germane fact that has to do with a topic.

Mike Sigman

ok, here's your fact:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial...arch+this+group

read and introspect.

The fact is, even from recent experience on this forum, that Tomas Drgn is pretty much in the realm of an internet stalker. You've spent time in rma, here, etc., simply chasing around with one negative comment after another that seems to have no purpose than some bizarre "get Mike Sigman" purpose. It's been pointed out to me by other people, in fact. Is there some personality problem you have, Tomas?

One of the strange parts about this is that there are 2 other internet users who do this same thing and one of them never reveals who he is but goes under the name of Justin Smith and he lives in the D.C.-Baltimore area and says that he has studied Judo. Would that be the same internet-stalker, I wonder?

My suggestion, once again, is that you straighten out your act and try to contribute something worthwhile to these topics. After all, your actions reflect on the school you attend in Baltimore and you do represent Judo to an extent. Be proud of it and do your best.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Be proud you represent judo, but keep it in perspective.

Styles are like chess openings, of which there are many varieties. Helpful up to a point, but then whether you win or lose is up to you.

I just have low tollerance for certain issues.

Things like this:
quoting

"Don't forget that in Chinese competition they don't allow the Chen guys to use the shaking power because it's "unfair" to others."

You have walked in here boldly assuming you know more that anybody else here, disregarding the fact that there's people here that spent their whole lives in Judo. Go and re-read your intro thread.

As far as stalking goes, I've been frequenting this forum for a few years now, it's not like I followed you here...

I'm with Wrestler/Judoka. Woodoo and witchcraft. Not a part of Judo.

Tomas

A well-known fact in CMA's. Chen Xiaowang was disqualified from a Chinese tournament because he used a small shake. Don't tell me what I think or assume. You did the same childish post-stalking on rec.martial-arts. All anyone has to do on Judoforum is look up your posts to me in the last few weeks and the pattern is blatantly obvious. You're basically a stalker with a grudge. The posts are still archived on rec.martial-arts as well.

Mike Sigman

It seems that in your mind the population of this world is divided into "Mr. Sigman" and "Mr Sigman stalkers".

But ok, this is my last response to you, no matter how much more silly you'll get.

Tomas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

looks like fun.

Style vs. style is such an overused paradigm -- how often does it devolve into name-calling, sometimes even subconsciously. I've been guilty myself of overgeneralizing or repeating stereotypes about martial arts which may in some sense have a branch that is factual (the stereotype, that is), but the root of the art can't be summed up with three words.

In my past I practiced taiji as an accessory to stand-up jujutsu. Now, I'm making no claims whatsoever about my ability or lack thereof. Let's just say that I have enough of a sense of who's got it. It being the ability to work me over like a cheap suit. We used to practice pushing hands in a very vigorous manner, and there are two individuals who were well-respected adepts of taiji & bagua (my taiji teacher and another gentleman who practiced bagua). They could do pretty much what they wanted, and they had a superb sense of body alignment and the ability to off-balance their opponent at will. And off-balancing is, from what I understand, the key to judo. An effective judo practitioner can have three techniques, or even one technique, and by using kuzushi, can apply these techniques to his or her heart's content.

How long does it take to learn the physical application of three techniques, if one is already intimately aware of the opponent and the self as far as lines of motion and kinetic energy? How long, on the other hand, does it take to build up the so-called internal aspect of an art such as judo or taiji? Some might say a lifetime is not enough.

We often speak without understanding the whole, or even accounting for the whole. Some people look at a martial way and see only the surface. I believe that to be a big mistake.

Let me tell you why. I have recently joined a judo dojo after years of jujutsu. At my first randori session, I was put with one of the yudansha to keep myself, the newbie, out of trouble and to make sure I didn't do anything stupid. This gentleman reminded me immediately of my taiji teacher, and in fact gave instructions during that first session that mirrored, more or less, what my taiji teacher would have said. It goes without saying that he worked me over just as my taiji teacher has done in the past, using very subtle but exacting kuzushi with a few basic waza.

On the surface, judo looks hard and taiji looks soft. But in certain respects they may share more than is immediately apparent.

Nice post, what a surprise in this thread?

Mike

Very good point. The human mind, without much learning and training, tends to see what it wants to see. We really need to develop critical thinking. Looking at the whole, checking the sources, going through the reasoning, understanding the different perspectives and discussing ideas effectively are a good start.

The other thing is that there are many surfaces. If one takes a look at Mifune Kyuzo's Judo in his video and compare that to certain demonstrations of 忽雷架 Huleijia Taijiquan, the Judo may very well look "harder" than the Taijiquan. In fact, in Taijiquan the techniques are explicitly taught to embody both 剛 gang/go and 柔 rou/ju. Technically it's equally right (or wrong) to call Taijiquan a hard style or a soft style.

The classical ideal is to be "half hard, half soft" just like the Yin-Yang diagram is evenly divided. The discussions about what is a "soft" martial art and what is a "hard" martial art seem to occupy western discussion-boards more than anywhere else, IME.

FWIW

Mike Sigman