does this man work with inner strength or how does he work?
and when he does how???
in any of this clips
http://www.youtube.com/user/moyinggerk

He does work with inner strength, but before you interpret that as something mystical be sure to observe what is plainly evident. Watch as this Master moves using his entire body. Look at the film once more and keep an eye on his center of gravity, the region between his belly button and crotch. Every time he throws an elbow for a block or a blow, the force and movement emanate from his center.

If Kung Fu Masters on the internet make you suspicious, go ask Tiger Woods about his golf swing, any discus thrower or shot putter about the basis of their force, a hockey player on how a slapshot is done, or an equestrian on how one should steer a horse. (It's not with the reins.) Have you ever picked up a toddler who doesn't want to go, and the kid makes himself a heavy, long, and low dead weight and seemingly sticks to the floor? The kid's just dropping his center and tying his whole body to it. The next time you stuff an opponent's throw with your hips, you've officially joined the club.

In one of the clips, entitled 'Practical', the Master shows a student how to deliver elbows to an opponent's trunk in rapid fashion. The lesson he's showing is how the young man should be using his entire body as opposed to his shoulders and arms. Later, he flattens the same guy against a wall. If you watch closely, that blow starts low, before his arm actually makes contact.

There's nothing magic going on. It's a physical skill common to most sports. In Judo, it falls under the category of Tai Sabaki and should serve as the basis of everything you do. It's subtle; there's more to it than you might realize, but it's nothing anyone can't do.

thank u for your very quick answer. how can i learn this??
my sifu told me to just press my waist forard with everymovement i do-i mean keeping it always forward pressed not throw it forward once and then release,relax and do it again the next possible situation. just press it forward and then your movement will become like this. so i was stndingin this position for an hour or more
--->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0uaJJsI1S4
and just doing this form-you can see the stance only at the beginning
then we where told to do this exercises from second 12 or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnb3DrnVfvQ...feature=related
and we wre doing many of this exercises
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUawXvyQz8E

is this enough to build up that kind of body unity this man has in the first link i posted???
greetings

How can you learn this? Go learn to ice skate or ride a bike without using your hands, or take a basketball and practice hitting jump shots from three-point range. The jump shot, by the way, is exactly as described: your body, your arms, and the ball all start heading upward at the same speed. The hands merely put the finishing touches on the ball's trajectory, which of course started when your feet were on the ground.

I watched the middle link above, the one with the guys practicing the structuring exercises. They started off okay, but then there was way too much upper body strength involved. They were isolating and exerting certain muscle groups, such as their shoulders or abs, to move one another. You can't learn this while trying to 'win.' Instead, it should be like ballroom dancing: you're linked - you're connected - you're solid, each of you, but there's zero focused force anywhere. When it comes time to move somebody, your whole body does the work.

The next time you're at the supermarket, practice stopping, starting, turning your shopping cart using your whole body as a frame.

i was doing this kind of cART SHOPPING but people started looking at me in a strange way (;))!
i am also cleaning the floor with a hoover this way, washing the floor and ironing dry- trying to move like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtBPZmRGC3M
but i dont really have the feeling of getting it into my body soon enough. i personally think that if you cant use something you learned within 6 to 12 months stop it and do something else. because you may waist your whole life learning something you will never be able to use

Huh - that's nuts. One of those guys looks eerily like I do.

Stacey - I want to sue for copyright infringement!

Those 'Kwa Movements' in that last link seem to be a pretty good whole body exercise, but, yes, people might think you're mad if they see you pushing the shopping cart or vacuuming the rug in that fashion.

Your six to twelve months comment is interesting. A good sensei, no matter which art you're in, or a decent tennis coach, should have you handling the basics in about six to twelve minutes. From then on, though, it will take years for you to make any sport or any art your own. You can't expect to master anything in a matter of months - and you might have to think a moment about what it means to master something truly.

To use a very prosaic example, I managed, like most people, to become a fairly competent driver within two months of beginning Driver's Education - and I even passed the test for my license on the first try. I went to a high school 20 miles from my home and had a girlfriend that same 20 miles away, so in the year that followed I not only was able to stay safe on the road but I gained a decent amount of metropolitan highway experience relatively soon in my career. Was I fully capable at an early age? Sure. A Master? Hardly - based on the following logic: More than 27 years later, I am a way better driver now than I was then, just by virtue of time and experience.

This might prove analogous to the study of martial arts. You should be able to establish competence in the basics pretty quickly - but if you want to be like some of those masters in the videos, it's going to take 27 years of living it.

Hi Norrin,
I don't see any signs of internal skill in the wing chun video. If the demonstrator had that ability, then his opponent/partner would be getting stuffed down into the ground by a "mere touch" from the teacher! "Internal strength" has to do with the manipulation of one's skeletal structure, tendon/muscle/fascia connections and the energy delivered by the opponent, as well as the manipulation of the opponent's skeleton and center.

There have been judo-ka who have had internal skills, though it is rare in modern judo. I think that mainly it was individuals who had training in koryu jujutsu and/or weapons systems, Daito-ryu aikijujutsu or Chinese internal martial arts, who then took their internal skills from those arts and applied them to judo. Kyuzo Mifune is probably the best of the best in this respect, though I do not know where he acquired his internal skills. They are evident in this old film. He was able to manipulate and shift his center so that opponents could not take his center, enter or sweep him -- they simply could not find his body mass to throw it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aS6Bgk9aws...feature=related

If modern judo-ka trained in the internal methods still extant in some Chinese and Japanese arts, imagine how powerful it would make them. I think that Jimmy Pedro would have won the Olympic Gold. ;)

Do you REALLY believe, that they were not able to throw Mifune-sensei?

Do you really believe that a person can't train to be -- and to become -- unthrowable?

Everybody can be thrown! No doubt about it.

Anybody can have a bad day. ;)
But there are internal skills, found mainly in Chinese arts but also in some Japanese koryu and koryu-like arts, that allow a person to manipulate his center and body mass in such a way that it becomes very, very difficult -- and yes, sometimes impossible -- to throw them. I have seen it first-hand myself. Mifune had that skill, which was why he was so damned hard to "find" in order to throw!

I´m familiar with this - and I have my own opinion about it.

But have you met and felt someone who can do it? I thought it was interesting that Norrin invoked the name of Mike Sigman, since of all people on this board, he is probably the one best qualified to demonstrate these skills.

I also have my opinion about M. Sigman. You can find my posts about that using the search function.

And yes, I met and felt a lot of judoka with outstanding abilities, that you may call "inner strenght" - and everybody who wants to demonstrate his ki-skills is welcome for a 30 min randori-session with me to prove his skills.

A lot of people dislike Mike Sigman for reasons related to his personality. ;) But those who have felt his structure and "jings" have to set aside their personal feelngs and accept that he has strong internal skills. There is also Dan Harden, who lives in New England (U.S.) and is reputed to be among the most powerful internal stylists around who can apply his skills martially, using traditional MMA. You may want to invest in meeting him, more than anyone else. If there is anyone who can't be thrown, but who can throw others at will and with ease, it is he. All using internal power, not waza.

The biggest thing about this forum, is that we have:

senior sensei with decades af experince in martial arts and first hand experience with many legends of judo and decades of experience with "bullshido"

international elite players of today and the past

people from different countries including Japan and China who know their own culture

martial artists with academic degrees for example in sports, physics, psychology, history, medicine, pedagogic, philosophy and almost everything what is related to martial arts and to sports and many of them have written scientific work about martial arts.

people with immediate access to immense number of sources

We all share our knowledge. So I suggest you read the posts of M. Sigman again learn from the responses.

I'll take your word for it. Sigman is all over the Internet, and I have read (and participated in) many of his discourses and arguments on other martial arts websites. That's why I am saying that in a case like his, where he really is a person with strong internal skills, one has to separate subjective feelings about him from the objectivity of experiencing his skills first-hand. I have met and trained with several people who have trained with Sigman, and all have said that not only does he have solid and impressive internals, he also is nothing in-person like he is online. (I'll hold that thought in reserve for when -- if -- I meet him myself, though).

My apologies for not seeing this thread, Norrin, and thanks for the p.m. reminding me. It wasn't deliberate, I assure you.

The problem with the term "internal strength" is that it can apply to a number of skills and of course those skills can be done over a wide range of ability. If you take a statement like "push that guy using your hara", you can find a number of interpretations of what is actually meant. Someone may push the guy with arms, shoulders, and legs while moving the hara forward and some people will say "that is moving from the hara". This may not even be "internal strength", but an efficient shove. Another push may involve using the hara to store and release power along a jin path (in any of a variety of levels of skill at this ability, from poor to good). Another level may have his ki-structure so well-developed that he can do it with a barely perceptible but very powerful motion. Another person may have the jin paths so well-developed that if you push against his forearm it feels like there is a pencil-eraser under his skin. And so on. There are a number of variations.

That being said, the videoclip you pointed to was of a southern-shaolin ("external") type of art, but yes the man has *some* ki-skills, although I don't think they are very complete. Most of his motion is shoulder/external derived, but he does use the whole body to power a lot of his motions when he wants to add power. My suggestion would be that for Judo, that type of martial-art and use of ki-skills is not a good model to pattern your training after. Part of the problem is that those styles of CMA's use a "closed" type of body training (notice how the body is closed inward in its stance, knees included). The arts Judo is derived from did not train the body to use the ki-strength in that way; they used a much softer approach (hence people falling down in katas do derive down-power, etc.). The hard style that the man is using develops structural power from harder breathing techniques and posture holding than Judo's predecessor arts did; the predecessor arts of Judo used the large, stretched postures and movements you see in the katas, combined with breathing and deliberately stretching parts of the fascia/"suit" of the body, while at the same time using relaxed manipulation by the hara of the ground-support and body-weight.

I realize that it's easy to want to gain some skills of the hara, but I'd urge caution in accepting some model just because it may be strong or martially effective. If you want to do Judo and use the hara, you should be careful what pattern you choose. ;)

Best.

Mike Sigman

Hmmmm... if you will check it out, 'WDAX', I have a history of going to meet people when the mood strikes me. It seldom takes 30 minutes and we don't need a mat to do randorii . However, I have indeed read your personally-insulting posts, while at the same time looking for even *one* post from you that indicates you have any knowledge in these skills we're talking about. So far I have seen nothing. Your posts have nothing but personal comments in them; perhaps it is wise for you to use a pseudonym!

You seem to be very good at the Keyboard Kommando stuff. Instead of polluting Norrin's thread with the same off-topic noise, why not start your own "hate Mike" thread and have a good time playing?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

You will not find anything I wrote about you as a person, I have my opinion about what you write.

this maybe interesting for mike sigman and wdax

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0a2QfoRUNw

how is he doing it. i attended a seminar with him and it was quit refreshing. if you want to fight against him or his force you will loose immediately if you stay relaxed he wont get you down that quick. if he punches you he will make your muscles relax and you get the fist full into your stomach. he is working with your reflexes and manipulating them. he is from germany maybe wdax can join one of his seminars if he wants too.
grretings bernd

I met Mike Sigman at a seminar several years ago and felt what he can do. He can demonstrate the skills he describes. In person he is very amiable. I don't believe that he (or anyone) is unthrowable, though.

One thing that he emphasized is that internal power is not "better" than external power. It does not make you invincible or immune to the laws of physics. It will not even make you a better fighter, necessarily. It's just a way of generating whole-body power with compact (even imperceptible) and often quite relaxed movements.

It's quite fascinating, really. I think many people use internal power from time to time without realizing it. I remember that Mr. Sigman suggested this himself: as I recall, his two examples were Third-World women carrying loads on their heads, and people using their body weight to close the trunks of their cars!

For a Judo example, I was watching a beginner randori with a veteran player the other day, and the beginner was violently wrenching at the veteran, trying to unbalance him, while the veteran simply maintained an erect, relaxed posture and was seemingly unaffected.

To the beginner, it must have seemed like the veteran was unnaturally strong. But a practiced eye could see that he was simply using a kind of body positioning learned subconsciously during years of randori, aligning his hips, spine, and legs in such a way that most of the beginner's twisting and pulling force was directed downwards into the floor. Or to put it another way, the beginner's arms and shoulders were battling against the strength generated by the veteran's legs, back, and bone structure.

If I understood Mr. Sigman's seminar, this is a kind of internal strength, although developed unconsciously. The veteran player probably just thought of himself as maintaining posture without wasting energy.

The tricky part, as I recall, is directing this kind of whole-body-alignment strength into complex martial techniques like well-timed strikes, blocks, and throws. This is what takes years of training in something like Taiji. And even then, it doesn't mean that one will be more powerful or more dangerous than an "externally" trained fighter -- just that one will be able to generate power with different kinds of movements (particularly close quarters movements).

As an example, I remember Mr. Sigman nearly collapsed my rib cage by placing his palm on my sternum and then undergoing a kind of full-body twitch. I believe this was called a "fa-jing." Very nasty -- although my old karate sensei used to produce the same effect with a straight punch.

I hope I am not misrepresenting Mr. Sigman and his teaching.

Now one can understand the basis of an old Judo story, the one in which the young student, proud of his skills, goes out to a crossroads to challenge various passersby. His sensei, hearing of this, goes out in disguise, and allows himself to be thrown very quickly. When the young man gloats, the old sensei says, "Yes, but look at your side." The young man does so, and realizes that the sensei, who has by then revealed himself, has marked him with a streak of grease.
The young man realizes he could very well have been killed, so he then pledges to cease his wicked ways and live according to the true spirit of Judo.

I recall my first reaction to that story being, "A streak of grease? So what?" It was some years later that I understood it, when I met my aged and wise sensei, who can very well demonstrate what CobanHutton describes above in his entire post or what WDax described very well in the 'Ni Kai' thread about relaxation and self awareness. Don't ever think that whole-body movement has anything to do with blockiness or stiffness. When you really know what you're doing, you realize that whole body movement is intended to create relaxation and speed and power that far surpasses 'external' strength, or the movement of one body part relative to another (a pull, a curl, a bench press). I too have been on the receiving end of this kind of skill, often enough to know that a blow from extremely close quarters and from an unlikely position - even the midpoint of a throw - can be quite effective.

No one is unthrowable. However some of the professional/full-time (not me) internal arts people can become nearly unthrowable because of their training and the strength of their legs. A number of Bagua practitioners, back in the old days, were known for being like that. The greater one's leg strength and the more one uses it as the basis for their power (controlled by the hara, of course), the less likely someone is able to throw you. Well, it's not "better" power, but it's more efficient in that it uses the ground and weight as the sources of power, thus requiring less expenditure of your own muscle. That's why learning this type of power is always considered "an investment for your old age". That's a good example. With a couple of lifetimes available the veteran would probably begin to find more and more skills and other strengths he could build around his method. Then he might find it even stronger to use the hara and ground to initiate all movements, and so on. He might find how to use the "suit" and store and release power along the spine, etc., etc. The full complement of skills in the ki arena are vast and they often vary as different styles find little secrets that they keep to themselves for their own advantages, and so on. You are not misrepresenting anything, but your perspective is interesting to me. I am always curious what people remember and what parts they focused on. Most of all, though, I am curious how much they practice so that the next time I see them they can demonstrate to me that we did not both go to that workshop as a waste of time.

Best.

Mike

Interesting discussion. Mr. Sigman, what do you mean by "leg strength"? The actual muscle mass and tone of the legs, the efficiency and accuracy of the vectoring/cross-body weight transfer via leg "winding"? A combination of the two? Or something utterly different?

I've heard of bagua adepts with that kind of powerful legwork, as well, though I haven't yet had the opportunity to train with anyone of that skill level.

Well, remember that I said in toto:
"The greater one's leg strength and the more one uses it as the basis for their power (controlled by the hara, of course), the less likely someone is able to throw you"..

The idea of "move from the hara" is that you don't move from the shoulders; i.e., your power doesn't come from the shoulders because if you fulcrum your power that far off the ground, your power (in the shoulders) is subject to being part of a lever arm that is at least a few feet off the ground (your basis of support)... thus it is weaker in application and more susceptible to stoppage by the opponent.

OK, so you decide that mechanically it's far smarter to move from the hara and not initiate power from the shoulders (in which case the shoulders, arms, hands are driven by the hara and the shoulders relinquish power to the movements of the hara/tanden). But how does the hara get it's power? From the stability of the ground through the legs, mainly (I could get more complicated and bring in the weight and a few other things, but I'm trying to keep this simple). In other words an articulate and very powerful middle is needed if you truly want to move from the hara.... and the legs must provide the strength and help with the articulation. Now, I'm aware that someone who doesn't understand this topic is going to miss or not understand the implications about "jin" forces (perhaps cobanhutton can give his impressions here), so I'm not going to go into that aspect since the general reasoning for "leg strength", with or without jin power, has been laid out.

Best.

Mike Sigman

Thanks! I'll sheepishly admit that my eyes skipped over the part about "controlled by the hara."

[equote name='Mike Sigman' date='Aug 10 2008, 07:35 PM' post='396589']


I suppose you're describing how the internal arts actually evolved from external ones... very interesting.



Well, my main interest in attending the seminar was to try to find out what internal power really was. As you know better than anyone, there is a lot of loose talk about this kind of thing in the martial arts world. So one valuable thing the seminar did for me was enable me to know when to pay attention and when to tune out.

As for my skills, I was never a serious neijia practitioner. At the time of the seminar (this was in Atlanta back in the late 90's, I think) I was training in Uechi-ryu karate -- I think this is why I was chosen as the "victim" for most of your demos that day!

After the seminar, I got involved with competitive Judo. But I have always tried to remember the principles I learned at your seminar (I think they're something everyone interested in martial arts should know about), and have tried to use them to help my Judo, mainly, as you suggest, as "an investment for old age." I'd like to be doing effective Judo when I'm 60, and I don't think the bulldozer approach will get me there.

The skill I've used most frequently is standing in the way I learned at your seminar, as a way of maintaining good posture in randori while remaining relaxed. (Interestingly, I've also found I can use the internal strength on my knees in newaza randori.)

Lately, I've been thinking about how I might use these principles to make my throwing more efficient. The recent threads here on Ju-no-kata and possible internal roots of Judo have therefore been of great interest to me. I had always thought of Judo as being a very external art into which I could sneak a few internal tricks to make things easier for my lazy self. Now I'm wondering if I can use the "down power" to improve my sumi-gaeshi, or a kind of fa-jing shake to break uke's balance before harai-goshi.

So in any case, even though I'm not really a neijia guy, I think I got good value for my seminar dollar. . . whether you would think so if you met me again, I can't say.

Thank you for your confidence that I understand this well enough to offer useful impressions. :)

My own experience of "leg strength" and "using the hara" is that when one is standing with internal strength, the legs feel relaxed but sturdy, like mobile pillars upon which the hara rests.

The next step, in my experience, is that it is impossible to actually move while maintaining an internally-strengthened stance without the hara functioning as the driver of the movement.

As a very simple example, consider the problem of resisting a push while standing in an internal way.

If I stand in a natural posture with internal strength "engaged" (for lack of a better word), my abdomen naturally sinks and kind of tenses in a relaxed way (if this makes sense). If someone pushes me, and I try to maintain my stance while maintaining this "engaged" feeling, my hara pushes back against the incoming force.

In actuality, the legs and back are doing the pushing -- but it doesn't feel like it. If I want to push harder against the incoming force, I have to push with the hara, or I lose the feeling of "engagement" and end up relying on external power.

From a biomechanical point of view, I suppose that what's happening is that the lower abdominal muscles are controlling the alignment of one's spine and hip joints in such a way that the large muscles of the back and legs are absorbing the force of the incoming push.

These muscles are so powerful in relation to most pushes that they hardly even feel the push -- the incoming force is felt primarily in the sole of the opposite foot, as if the force was being channelled directly into the ground. It feels as if the ground itself is supporting the force of the push. I think this is what the Taiji people mean when they say "receive the strength of the Earth," etc.

So, personally, I have learned whatever I know about the role of the hara indirectly -- by trying to push, move, etc. while maintaining the feeling of internal "engagement" or connection, and finding that it feels as if the hara has to be the origin and controller of the movement.

However, I must confess that I can't do anything but very simple things with internal strength (standing, resisting a push, simple pushing or, less effectively, pulling). More complicated movements require the kind of training one sees in Taiji, Bagua, etc. I imagine it takes a lot of abdominal strength and a rather highly developed sense of motor control in this area to really use an internal martial art effectively.

Thanks. That gave me some insights about how you perceive things. Well, to change over to hara-driven movement means that you have to deliberately re-pattern a lot of other movements that have now become habituated. It's hard to do and takes a while. I've seen extreme hara training (in some real experts) that has resulted in a muscular-knot development just below the navel which they can control at will. This is, though, an extreme of what can be done. Levels of hara development can go from zero up to this "qi ball" level. Whether the martial skills match the levels of showy hara's is another question entirely.

Best.

Mike

I view all of this as an understanding of biodynamics and the physics involved (the lowering of one's center of gravity as noted by SHF above). This can be both self taught and learned from others. Just as a baby lowers their center of gravity to almost floor level, the become seemingly heavier, as an example. Yet their mass never changes. If one can move even slightly, and especially in an appropriate for the purpose direction, one can (with mass time velocity squared) make the force required to move the mass greater. We can do that when standing doing rondori and in many other circumstances. That there is a difference in is recognized in the terms dead and live weight. playing with the natural human reaction time can also add to this effect.

While it does not really involve "inner strength," Wally Jay's Small Circle Jiu Jitsu with its two way levered/fulcrummed applications maximize the physics involved in body biomechanics. It that style and many others once you take the inner strength away from uke, you keep them moving so they may never regain the balance need for again having inner strength and therefore, resistance..


I am amazed at the length of the threads and number of posts on this subject though through out the Judo Forum.

Seriously..... we're talking about different things.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

I know we disagree, but that is what my feeble opinion is on the subject. Body control and physics.

We agree on that. *Everything* is physics and bodycontrol. But then, so are all magic tricks... but I don't know how to do them until someone shows me how. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

"Felt his 'jings'" Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear?

We need to keep an open mind in all things. Few things in life are written in stone. Mifune Sensei had great skills they where of this earth though and generated by him. There is a lot about the mind we yet dont understand. To this end there are things we have to discover what the mind can do in terms of bodily control. I have yet to read of, see or fight a person who cant be thrown. I reiterate, YET.

Empty cans make the loudest noise. Beware of all that that seems golden. Mr Sigman is no judoka. Cant speak about his other work but in terms of judo he throws himself here very well and often too. If internal strength equates to making friends and avoiding conflict I would think Mr Sigman..................well enough said.

Mike

Thank you for those insightful comments, Sensei. They speak well of Judo.

Mike Sigman

Mr Sigman,

As you can see I am a poor representative of judo. I am still a million miles away from seeing any of the lights that guide our paths. I do know peoples character though and I just cant see what you hope to learn from us or teach us in the threads you have debated to date.
This is a judo forum and there are senior grades here like PTNippon Sensei, CKSensei, Judosensei, Wdax Sensei, Danguy Sensei, Gene shin Sensei etc etc who have spent their lives learning and studying kodokan judo. Some of us actually knew the very sensei you refer to in other threads.
You put my back up before I even replied to you or knew who you where.!You can be so confrontational and condescending. No one expects or likes kiss asses around here but jezz you seem to have set the record for pissing of every sensei in the place. Have you yet debated in a thread where you have not found conflict?
With respect for you as a person, I sincerely suggest that you may have come here and first taken things easy on us instead of entering this cyber dojo wearing the kuchi waza of a 12th dan wearing steel toe caps rather than zori.

You have informed all who have debated with you including myself that we dont understand Ki. May I take you back to the Ju no kata thread. You opened a very interesting thread then went of into the woods never to be found on the subject again. You are one hell of a politician sir.
As one of the more experienced ranks here I think it part of my responsibility to advise the membership about people who write here yet have no grounds in what they write. Many of the members here are new to judo and Budo in general and may well read your posts and start to think Judo is something it is not, or it does not have something it does.
Ki is a tool we posses and Judo enables us, after time, to make good use of it. I dont think there is anything mystical about Ki. I dont think you can teach ki to a person without a vehicle to do so. Judo is our vehicle and ki development is well recognised amoung those those sensei who have experienced ki.

May I ask you a question? What is your motive in joining a judo forum? You are welcome but you must show responsibility in what you debate and not dodge questions the way you do. I do fear you cause friction by starting or joining in posts then not answering your own point or others questions. Its very frustrating for the readers.

I wish you no ill at all. Having written that I have a vested interest in this forum and will work hard to help maintain its high standard of academic founded knowledge. I am certain we understand each other dont we.

Best,

Mike

Thank you again for your telling comments, Sensei. I think you are a sterling representative for Judo. It must be late at night in the UK, so thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts.

Mike Sigman

Hi,

Thank you, that is most kind of you to write so Mr Sigman.

Mike

I think that one problem here is that what judoka speak of as being "ki" and what Mike Sigman speaks of as being "ki" (or "qi") are not the same things. There can't be an intelligent discussion of the subject if one person is talking "apples" and the other, "oranges." What would be the point?

Nice post, Mike. For me, I don't have it in me to spend that much time on the subject of ki on the internet. Perhaps later, but not in the near future.

I am seriously wondering with the various threads on ki, tai chi ( in its varied spellings) and the threads about did Japenese arts start in China all coupled with the olympics just some propoganda drive by China and its agreeable followers. I am not some nut job internet conspiracy wackos, but I see patterns. Here i see a pattern. Patterns can be random but it this case who knows. I am not that interested where an art may have started, but a culture that needs to claim such things seems to be a thin one. The number of Falun Gong e-mail has peaked recently too.

For me, Judo started in a YMCA in Albany California, USA, planet earth. The fact that I sought out more Judo beyond the walls of the Y gym gives standing to my interest in Judo and the teaching I have received. If I know ki, good for me. If I do not know ki, that in no way changes the Judo fun I have had all these hours all these decades.

I like sex. Do I need to understand the core of sex drive? No. Does it make sex better? Who cares. I would think there are folks who would still like sex wheather or not they knew it lead to babies. Perhaps, they enjoy it more. There are things you need not explain or fully understand to completely enjoy. Sex and ki come to mind. I just wonder if ki is like sex, those that talk about it the most are usually those practicing it the least?

Spoken like a true dude. If you were a woman, it would behoove you to know that sex leads to babies, since the burden of pregnancy, labor and delivery (not to mention many years of caregiving in nearly all cultures) and in fact most women figure it out pretty damned quickly, regardless of their level of education.

Ki-wise, it behooves all of us to know it because internal power imparts greater power to your judo, to jujutsu, and to any othr form of hand-to-hand combat you care to practice. Why wouldn't you want that edge? Why wouldnt you want to know how to generate, manipulate and exploit it for the greater game of judo? Mifune did, and look where it got him. ;)

My point was that even without understanding the out come ki and sex can be had when one is unenlightened. I had in mind groups of folks who did not yet understand the sex=baby part of biology. Today, there are likely few of those tribes left. BTW, the sex=babies is not instinctual information. But you are correct to know it is more likely the woman will make the connnect before the man.

Now I wonder if women have a better understanding of ki.

If I am not mistaken, Mifune sensei is dead, so is the answer the grave? He did have mythical Judo before that end point.

My "female intuition" told me that you were going to pull the "Mifune is dead" line. So, maybe women do have an inherently better understanding of ki.

Well, no, actually. I doubt that the ability to conceive, gestate and deliver has anything to do with understanding "ki." It's just a way of exploiting the human body in such a way that you are structurally more stable and powerful than a biped could ever dream of being. It may be fine to have solely an intuitive knowledge of how to do it and how it "feels," but if you're going to teach it, it helps to have an intellectual -- or at least an intelligent -- understanding of how it works, and why. It's great to know Newton's Law of Gravity, which describes the "what," but knowing the Theory of Gravity explains the "why and how."

If anything, the person who feels the effect of "ki" from an opponent, again and again, will be able to make the connect and figure our that something's goin' down. Hm. Come to think of it, that is kind of like a woman getting pregnant again and again after repeated sex, and figuring out that something fishy is going on... heh.

Heck, if you spent time in the Misc forum, you could find many folks who would proudly have given the grave answer before me.

Now as to the ki issue, you are a little late in joining the party. There have been some rather long running and at times quite contentious discussions about ki in judo. One poster in particular is very pointed in the is there ki in Judo , how why or why not. Some of us have resorted to the position the one can have and experience ki with out having to be able to explain ki to the satisfaction of that individual. That individual seems to be targeting the high ranking folks on the forum in the subject; by high ranking (sixth and above) , I mean actual real world judo rank, not the forum post based rank.

I believe ki is a nature quality we all possess and can use even if we don't understand it. I was drawing on the analogy of sex for illustration. It exist, most folks engage in the activity regardless of their actual understanding of the details of the subject and dynamics.

BTW I will not comment on the the other opening you left...but there are some great oneliners there.... I will give women the ki advantage in relationships, no question.

I have no doubt that the "ki" issue has been debated to death on this bulletin board, just as it has on almost every other MA-related board on the 'net. Especially if Mike Sigman has been there. He is as ubiquitous and omnipresent as the topic itself.

Since humans are creatures of nature, I suppose that everything we do and are capable of must too be "natural." However, that doesn't mean that they come to us naturally, instinctively or easily. About 99% of everything humans do, beyond autonomic response (e.g. breathing, heartbeat, diving reflex, etc.) is learned and must be acquired. I suspect that we lose any natural inclination toward "ki" or "aiki" by the time we become toddlers.

Some people have more intuitive ability and can feel it more quickly and exploit it more quickly, but I don't believe that the harnessing of "ki" skills is anything instinctive. Furthermore, to use it martially we must learn and condition it in. The unnatural must be made to become second nature.

And yes, I know you were using sex as an analogy. More entertaining than, say a bowling analogy, though I'm sure we could figure one out. :)

Regards,
Cady

P.S. I updated my profile info, so feel free to indulge your curiosity again. Sorry I was a bit slow setting up my page when I registered.

First welcome to the forum, a statement I should have made before.

It is not good that I never used "Mike Sigman" by name and you nailed it as my sensei intuition said you would. I have tried not to put myself in front of him too much as a target.

Sex I thinks works with ki. I have used medical analogies but one nice person, a nurse (Nic) seems to get pissed off when I do. Or at least i ruffle her a bit when I do. Now I will have to work in a reference to a Be-carbuncled Goose and hostle elders.

I see you did add to the profile. I will say it is nice to have another ah, more seasoned practitioner participating in the forum.

Actually, there are processes of internal training that do have kind of an impact on sex, without themselves being sexual in nature. So, you may be on to something there -- though we may be thinking of very different things. Chinese internalists would probably do a better job of explaining. They've written copiously about it over the centuries.

C

P.S. Thanks for the welcome. I'm an "armchair judoka," meaning I enjoy watching good judo. Since Olympics medalist Jimmy Pedro grew up one city over from me, and there are also some fine old-school judoka still living in the area, I came up very much aware of the judo scene even though I never trained. (When I was 9, I desperately wanted to train in judo at a nearby dojo opened by a chap named Bernie Mulligan, but at the time, co-ed contact sports weren't allowed in the town, and no other girls wanted to take judo. Many years later I ended up in jujutsu.)

By the way, you get from Mike Sigman what you put into Mike Sigman. He knows whereof he speaks.

Well you seem to have some good MA chops per google (note my edits to the previous post).

I figured that out about Mike but thanks for the heads up.

7 on 1 one, one foot osaekomi? http://www.aikido-l.org/seminars/1998_us/p...wards_pics.html

Yep, you fit right in here.