You talk with much confidence! And you also post well-researched answers, even if the evidence behind them are dubious, it's not your fault, it's almost a century of propaganda behind (G)BJJ facts... I think all that propaganda did more bad than good to the Gracies, for example, Roger Gracie is a monstrous, stupendous, marvelous newaza specialist like almost no other before him, but due to Gracie propaganda, many people will have a hard time accepting that he is that GREAT just because there are too many lies behind him. I am, in a fashion, a Gracie fan, I started BJJ in 1997 because of them, and because of BJJ I've started Judo, and now I hold my black belt under no other than sensei Mehdi himself (search the web for +Judo +Mehdi and find some reports on him).



When I was a blue belt, which I won after 6 months of training only, I thought I was able to submit any Judo black belt easily. In fact, that was what happened all the time, and my respect for Judo newaza was very little. Then I started to do Judo, because I injured myself in BJJ and started loving it, and researching it and discovered that BJJ comes from Judo, and all that... I was still very sad about the level of Judo newaza. Then I went into contact with people like Flavio Canto, who I myself saw submitting a row of 6 to 10 BJJers black-belts without interruption. Margarida, multiple time BJJ brazillian and world champion once said he was helpless against Flavio Canto, who is a Judoka.

Then I started loosing for some old-timers Judoka in newaza practice. People who do not compete nor train everyday anymore, but who had a different Judo training regime, not focused on current, almost tachiwaza (throw) only competition. They were not the level of BJJ's black or brown belts, but they were great and knew so many different tricks I was really amazed.

Then I found sensei Mehdi, and I lost in a very humiliating way to some of his black belts. I did never lost that fast, not even to BJJers BB. Then I started learning so many things in newaza with Mehdi, things I didn't learned not even at Rolker Gracie academy! I was and still am amazed!

I don't think the painting analogy (I hate analogies by the way) stands. You never finished a single painting! How would that compare with a Judoka training newaza and a BJJer training newaza? In Brazil you can enter in a BJJ competition at the same belt you hold in Judo. Mehdi sensei allows you to use your BJJ belt in his Judo classes. Even Luta-livre Esportiva black belts are allowed to use the black belt as a friend of mine uses there (the only drawback is that he used to loose in tachiwaza to almost everybody!)



I don't know the name of the "mini-sensei"!!! Although I met him once. He is not trainning anymore. He stopped competing a long ago. Sensei Mehdi loves him like a son anyway... Maybe that's because Rickison couldn't finish him :-) Here goes another interesting story from Mehdi's academy: There is a black-belt that goes there very sporadically. He do not train more than a few days in an entire month. He goes to Mehdi academy once or twice in the span of two months. When he goes there Mehdi wents ecstatic! He loves Jorginho, the black belt holder as his son, and always tell to everybody he is his best student. I did randori with him!!! I never saw something like that! He threw me to the ground with harai-goshi at will, more than 1 time in 30 seconds. I lost the count of how many time I went to the ground! He also did randori with an immense judoka from the German team that was going to fight in the worlds in Rio, and he won! Throwing the guy two times for what could be a wazari in shiai! And he did not train Judo the minimum we would accept to be necessary to make you a good judoka anymore. Mehdi says that when he was younger (he is 33 now) Jorginho used to "destroy" Flavio Canto at will!!! Both in tachi and newaza. So, we have someone who is not a competitor, not even a daily practitioner, never competed in BJJ, never grappled with Paulo Filho, and who is THAT good! But my personal account is nothing more than anedoctal evidence, of course, not a solid argument.

So we can change it and use Flavio Canto instead. He is probably one of the greatest newaza specialists in the world, considering BJJ, Judo, Sambo, anything. And he never competed in BJJ. That's because, despite rumors, Judo is WAY TOO MUCH BIGGER than BJJ in Brazil. Judo is an olympic sport, and someone like Flavio Canto really don't bother to enter a BJJ competition, even having condition to go for a world title. Judo is way too much more important to him than BJJ. You don't see BJJ in open television as often as Judo, Flavio Canto even earned a place as commentator of the biggest TV open channel in Brazil due to his results in Judo.

Here goes some videos of great newaza masters of Judo:

Kashiwazaki, one of the greatest newaza experts of all time. Keep in mind that he himself said that in competitions he always went for the osaekomi (immobilization) because it was safer, that he preferred osaekomi is not his shortcomming, just the way he thought was safer to win his fights. He is well versed in submissions too, as good as any BJJer world champion, or even better:




Now, Flavio Canto, I tell you that you wouldn't wish to face him in newaza, not even when you win your BB!:




Brazilian Judo hightlights... Some of Canto's great submissions:



Some general, not always exciting, Judo newaza:






Yes, Rickson was/is good, but he is just not unbeatable, not even the greatest BJJer of all time. I think Carlson was better than him, at least as far as being almost unbeatable against any opponent... Whenever Hélio lost, Carlson would step in to "avenge" the family, but then, again, he never ever mentioned any willingness to face Masahiko Kimura, the Kodokan Judoka that humiliated Hélio Gracie here in Brazil. It's not a shame for Hélio, Kimura was insane! A monster of a newaza specialist! Almost unbeatable.

Also I think way too many people think that Hélio founded BJJ while it was Carlos Gracie the only and one who learned the "art" of Kodokan Judo from Mitsuyo Maeda. As such, he is, in my opinion, at least 50% founder of BJJ as Hélio. Because it was he who trained his brothers, and if Hélio became as great as he is now it was only due to Carlos Gracie amazing feat of assimilation that allowed him, with only 2 years under Maeda, to create a school of Jiu-Jitsu (Judo is a school of Jiu-jitsu, so BJJ is also a school of Jiu-jitsu by coming from Judo) that was able to confront Judo and even surpass today Judo dominance in Newaza... How many of us would believe that a 2 year experienced neophyte, a blue belt, perhaps, would be able to found such dinasty?

Now regarding Wanderlei Silva... Yes, he owns a BJJ black belt, and he is good, he is just not as good as BJJ black-belt competitors. He is an avarage BJJ BB, which is in itself an amazing feat.

paulao is also a judo black belt, wasnt he brazilian junior national judo champ one year? I think he spent more of his life training judo than bjj

big nog also spent the better part of his youth doing judo, as well as marcelo garcia

there are many more

Minotauro (big Nog) did some Judo in his youth but that can't count as actual Judo practice! After all almost everyone I ever meet had trained some Judo in his youth, here at my workplace I have 5 friends, 4 of them trained Judo when younger, but only I really train Judo for real! Judo in Brazil is seen as a sport that can help children to calm down, to learn how to deal with aggressive behavior, even therapists will "prescribe" judo to over-active children here. Judo is seen in a very good light by parents, so that's natural many people do that in some time in their youth. I guess that's the case with Minotauro...

Paulao, on the contrary, did/do Judo for real!!! ;-)

finally. a judo vs bjj thread.

God, some of you guys really need to grow up...hell, since i am on the subject out of all the grappling arts (submission) Sambo,Pankration,Pancrase,shootfighting,shooto, catch-as-catch can.why is it only bjj that judoka got everything in the world to say about it? or feel the need to prove themselves ?sounds like a Very,Very bad case of small man Syndrome.

Tell me about it. You don't see Shotokan Karatedo (analagous to Judo) and Tang Soo Do (analagous to BJJ) arguing and splitting hairs over who has the "real" karate....

It seems like I've waiting all my life for one of these to finally appear

you know flavio trains sporadically with royler and other bjj guys, do you think that is why he has a real good newaza game?

What do you mean "for real"

Do you mean competitively or recreationally?

How do you know Big Nog did it recreationally?

Recreational gets a really bad rep, but it does not mean a recreationalist has no skill at all

I never played organized basketball, but did play lots of street ball

I can tool most of the guys that were on the high school varsity bball team, and the top guys I can easily hang with and that is without ever playing organized bball or having formal training, and I am talking about North Jersey where the basketball is pretty good

Maybe Big Nog was not an awesome judoka by brazil's standard, but that does not mean he did not gain squat from judo newaza that he was able to tranfer to bjj on his way to a mundial championship (i think he won it once)

For real means more than once in a week for years in a row... Actually at least 3 times a week, without interruption, for years in a row... Big Nog never mentions his Judo background because there's none! He just did "some" Judo when he was a child, but he moved to BJJ. But of course, some is better than NONE! But IMHO every single person that does BJJ has great insight into Judo, maybe not competitive Judo, because the rules now are very bad towards newaza specialists.

Flavio Canto trains sporadically with some top BJJers... In fact he is nomad! He goes to lots of different academies, both BJJ and Judo academies. That's what he is doing all the time. He did not say he cross train in BJJ because his training is focused in Judo... If there were sambo and hapikido academies here I'm sure he would go there do some training, get new experiences, learn some new trick. Canto is very smart! He is like Musashi, trying to find opponents everywhere, seeking for a new lesson wherever it may be. A modern day samurai.

Now to another point from other posters...

This is NOT a Judo vs. BJJ thread, just read my post in it's entirety! It is an offspring from another thread where we started discussing some aspects of BJJ relating to Judo but which had no place in that discussion. I did not bashed BJJ, I just explained some facts, and expressed my feelings towards Gracie propaganda, which I think is immensely detrimental to BJJ image!

I was thinking about Karate today, even before reading some analogy presented in this thread... What a coincidence!

Karate people did not argue Kyokushin or Shotokan validity as a different martial arts, but they are all Karate! The problem is that Judo displaced Jiu-Jitsu in Japan, so it was a kind of restart, as Kano wished it to be. It did not replaced Jiu-Jitsu, it "displaced" jiu-jitsu (Kano's own words). BJJ was developed based on Kodokan Judo... The problem was with nomenclature, which at that time was improperly used, and Judo was almost unknown overseas Japan. I think BJJ should have been called Gracie Judo or Brazilian Judo, and we would have something like Shotokan Karate vs. Kyokushin Karate. That would be the most proper name, but history didn't worked that way. Kodokan Judo and Gracie Judo ;-)

I'm not diminishing BJJ status! Although it displays the same throws and submissions, etc it differs substantially in training regime, methods, competition rules to stand out as a martial-art on it's own accord, anyone dismissing this is failing to see the point (my sensei Mehdi does not recognize BJJ, but he has a grudge with the Gracie, so we understand :-)

That's a higher level of UKEMI never seen BEFORE!!!

Very good points indeed.

The history of Tang Soo Do (Korean) with respect to Shotokan (Japanese) is that Lee Won Kuk trained directly under Gichin Funakoshi (Shotokan founder). Tang Soo Do literally means "The Way of the Chinese Hand" or simply "China Hand" with reference to the Tang Dynasty of China. Karate when written in the orignal kanji (as by Anko Itosu) literally means "Chinese Hand" or "Tang Dynasty Hand".

So you can see how Shotokan karatedo and Tang Soo Do are just different sides of the same coin. The core movements/techniques and kata/hyung are almost identically the same in both arts, but just with some different emphasis.

That is why I likened Judo and BJJ to Shotokan and Tang Soo Do.

And how mentioned that Judo displaced/replaced Jujustu, that there could be the basis for the arguement that BJJ could not have come from any koryu as many never really survived past 1869, but actually came from Judo. Hence, Judo subsumed many of the koryu, therefore to say that you have a Jujustu Ryuha outside of Japan is not entirely correct.

Sensei Mehdi is so right, on so many levels! http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/mehdi.htm

In the Kodokan Judo book introduction by Jigoro Kano he said that Judo displaced jiu-jitsu in Japan... Also, more importantly in regard to what was taught to the Gracies here in Brazil is that Mitsuyo Maeda had never studied under any koryu school of jiu-jitsu, he did some Sumo in his youth but changed to Kodokan Judo under Tsunejiro Tomita auspices. It's easier for BJJ to have some Sumo influence on its origin than from any koryu jiu-jitsu school. ;-)

It's funny to tell people that BJJ has more Sumo and western wrestling in it than koryu jujutsu.

You mean to say that Mitsuyo Maeda never studied under the deadly Fusen Ryu as according to the Gracies????

Just kidding...I know what you mean by your reply. I'm glad we have so many Judoka like yourself from all over the world on this forum. And in your case, being that you're in Brazil and train with Mehdi sensei, offer a different perspective than the pushed propoganda.

Kudos loudenvier. Good story. Appreciated.

Thank you! You know, the thing that really strike me as bad is that some people (rarely on this forum though) think I don't like BJJ!!! I guess they are all crazy people, because I LOVE BJJ almost as much as JUDO... I pass hours watching BJJ competitions on youtube... I really appreciate all the great newaza specialists coming from BJJ (Murilo Bustamante, Rxxxx Gracie (where xxxx can be oyler, ickison, oger, etc ;-) - they may employ propaganda, but no one can deny their aptitude for the art, the Machado brothers - by the way my name is Felipe Machado ;-) - Fabio Gurgel, Jacaré, Margarida, Minotauro, the list can go on almost forever...)

People think I want to underrate BJJ by saying that it came from Judo, when all I want is just to uncover the truth which is evident to anyone with good will to look for reliable sources! Judo, when it was less sport oriented, used to be an almost unbeatable martial art on the rings, just like BJJ when the world start enjoying vale-tudo again... It displaced old school jiu-jitsu, it grew with the help really of great masters as Tomita, (old) Yamashita, Mifune... and BJJ came from such modern, efficient martial art...

I have my personal opinion towards BJJ, and I never call it crosstraining when I went to a BJJ academy because I face it just like an ordinary Judo academy specialized in newaza, I go there to train with as much different people as possible to be exposed to different skill sets.... I have learned some good advice to avoid being throw in many BJJ academies (they hate to fall so much that some of them became very good at avoiding conceding any score :-)

In the end I'm very proud of BJJ having been developed in Brazil and still kept the roots in the Japanese martial art of Judo... And that's undeniable an achievement of the Gracie family. They should be loved, unanimously liked, but their "spreading" methods sometimes work in a counterproductive way!

Well, this post is so metaphysical... Sorry, it's 02:25 AM here in Brazil! :-)

Welcome to 1994.

But isn't BJJ really nothing other than an offshoot of judo?
It was brought to Brazil from Japan by a judo man from the Kodokan, and all the moves are based originally on judo moves.

Having said that, surely BJJ has done judo some favours by showing how effective judo techniques (which is after all what they are) can be in MMA.

Yes! You're completely correct... BJJ is an offspring of Judo... What the Gracies learned was Juda...

And it still is Judo in the broader term, since the essence behind BJJ and Judo is almost the same.. And they share, even if unoficially, a very similar syllabus.

A punch is a Pankrasion, a Karate, a Tai-chi-chuan, a Krav-maga or a boxing technique?

I guess the martial art defines itself from the way it is teached... Judo and BJJ are very closely related on both techniques and the way they are teached: randori is at the heart of it all...

BJJ call it rolling...

Judo call it randori...

And that's why so many people call BJJ as Judo with no throws... Or Judo as BJJ withtout submissions... They are all missing the point...

Today BJJ is undeniably a martial art on it's own... Although I think BJJ and Judo are more closely related to each other than Kyokushin-karate is to Shotokan-karate. I've used both examples to explain the BJJ vs Judo relationship but now I don't think they are that great because they differ so significantly in the way they are taught that, although both being Karate are far from each other than BJJ is from Judo... But you get the picture...

Even their gis are the same! (regardless of changing the name of the Judo gi to kimono, putting cool little Nascar patches on it & dying it any color they want!) The style is still the same! Who would have ever known?!?!

It seems that the main difference is in the contest rules, eg. no ippons for throws in BJJ. This naturally has an effect on the way the style is practised.

This (relegating the relevance of throwing) deviates from what Kano espoused, who I recall considered tachiwaza more beneficial.

Since someone has asked what the beef of judoka is with BJJ, it seems fair enough to give an answer.
BJJ owes an enormous debt to judo that it seems reluctant to acknowledge, presumably for marketing reasons (BJJ practitioners seek to profit personally from the art. If what they market is seen has indistinguishable from judo, which is non-profit, how can peddle their style effectively?).

Original jujutsu is inherently Japanese, as is judo. The whole "Brazilian" tag seems to be usurping it as something inherently Brazilian, which it isn't. I say credit where credit is due. It is Japanese. It's dishonourable to try to claim credit for something you are not responsible for. For this reason I object to the name BJJ. Jujutsu ended with the Meiji restoration and the end of the Samurai. Kyuzo Mifune wrote, "Judo is, after all, a living thing; something that is constantly undergoing growth and development." Instead of BJJ call it Gracie judo or something.

That's not to say that Gracie judo (I think this better reflects what it is than BJJ) hasn't served a good purpose. When Jigoro Kano devised judo, he understood what was effective. That was one of his mottos: maximum effectiveness with minimum effort, (maximum efficiency). The Gracies have helped to demonstrate the effectiveness of judo methods.

Great post, AliWazari. I agree with you 100%

I think these are the simple facts. What's there to disagree with?

A good bit, actually... There's a whole thread dedicated to the question of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu's name, and its accuracy.

Beyond that, the claim that BJJ "seems reluctant to acknowledge" its Judo origins is absolutely absurd. I've never met a BJJ player that pretends Judo wasn't the ancestor of their art.

The idea that calling it "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" is an attempt to usurp ownership over the art's inception is also preposterous. When Kano decided to rename his art as Judo, was he dishonoring those men who had awarded him Menkyo Kaiden in jujutusu ryuha? Certainly not! When innovation evolves an art into an entirely new form, it is not dishonorable to give that art a new label.

Was Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu borne out of Judo? Absolutely. Is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, as practiced today, simply a variation on Judo, as practiced today? Certainly not. Sharing a number of techniques does not make them the same art. If two artists each paint a portrait of the same man, that does not make both works of art the same.

--Joe

Actually beyond the patches, the gi is still different... The BJJ gi is more tapered to the body and not as "baggy" (for lack of a better word) than a Judo gi. The BJJ gi tends to not be allowed in Judo competitions.




You've never met a Gracie or anyone that trains directly under them have you?

Actually, I have. Quite a few times. I live a town away from Renzo. Heck, it's impossible to go to a Grappling tournament in the Northeast without seeing twenty coaches that have trained directly under Renzo, and a hundred more who have met or done seminars with him.

If the Gracies were so adamant to deny their Judo roots, they have an odd way of showing it-- Renzo and Royler's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Theory & Technique contains a basic history of Judo before Maeda's excursion to Brazil, and lauds Kano with a great deal of respect and praise. Royler and Helio's Gracie Submission Essentials has a similar history, wherein Helio expounds his respect for both Maeda and Kimura.

I don't think anyone tries to claim BJJ has no influence from Judo. However, BJJ players tend to become defensive when a Judo player exclaims, "That's all just Judo!" Much in the same manner as a Judo player becomes defensive when a BJJ player exclaims, "even a BJJ White Belt can beat a Judo Black Belt!" Both of these are arguments of ego, and do a disservice to both arts.

--Joe

Renzo is an exception and the only Gracie I have any respect for... Reality is the real problem ha always been Rorian and his greed.

Bingo....you hit the nail right on the head.

Every family has a 'black sheep" that is off-kilter with the rest, Rorion just might be the Gracie's is all.

No, it's modeled after the Judogi, let's be honest here. Slight differences are insignificant. I've seen some Royler Gracie teaching in a slim (possibly "Eurocomp") Judogi.

The karate gi is modeled after the judogi, as well. It also has slight differences from a judogi(sewed on sleeves). So does that mean it's just a judogi?

Ahhhhh but YOU as well as the rest of us "REAL" Judoka know we have always had submissions, its been a part of the Kodokan syllabus since before the Gracies knew what Jujutsu or Judo was! Even the Katame-no-kata established by Jigoro Kano, were standardized in the 1906 meeting of KORYU JUJUTSU MASTERS at the Butokukai. This is quite a few years before Maeda even arrived in Brasil.

The Kodokan syllabus is clear and concise, as well as the origins of most all techniques. Chokes and joint lokcs have been there since the beginning.

...I'm kind of sure that was his point.

Obviously, there are submissions taught in Judo, just as there are throws taught in BJJ. I'm rather sure that he meant that either statement is a gross mischaracterization of both sports. BJJ is not "Judo without throws," and Judo is not "BJJ without submissions." They are each distinct martial arts, regardless of their similarities.

--Joe

Is there video of this match? In 1993 at the U.S. Sambo Championships in Norman, Oklahoma, undefeated Rickson Gracie, of the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu family, with over 300 straight victories, was matched with multiple Judo and Sambo champion Ron Tripp. The 6 foot, 205 pound Tripp threw the 5 foot 10 inch, 185 pound Gracie to the canvas by "Uchi mata" in 47 seconds and Gracie's shoulders touched the floor, thus giving Tripp "absolute" victory under U.S. Sambo rules. Does the match count as Judo beating BJJ even if it was a Sambo match?

Rickson claims he was not made aware of the Absolute Victory rules prior to the match, and that he would not have gone along with the throw so easily if he had known.

Now, whether that's true or just a poor excuse, he did lose that match. Honestly, I'd love to see video of it, but I haven't been able to find any. I have found old video of Rickson competing in a SAMBO tournament, floating around on YouTube, but not that particular match.

--Joe

I really don't think that BJJ is a misnomer! Nor an attempt at usurping something inherently japanese. It was an art developed here in Brazil, by the Gracies, derived from Japanese Judo. The proper name should have been Gracie Judo or Brazilian Judo, but even Maeda called it Jiu-Jitsu here (the already well known name of the "mystial Japanese martial art") and did not bother correcting it (it was only corrected in then 1950-60s...). And Jiu-Jitsu also came from China (with a different name) so it's not even inherently Japanese if you start recalling history... :-)

Carlos Gracie studied under Maeda for 2 years only and then moved away... Along with his brothers they had to reinvent almost everything because 2 years are such a small amount of time that you can't possibly grasp what Judo really is. The Gracies, despite all the hype and propaganda, did an amazing job "reinventing the wheel" and "adapting it". It's a kind of parallel evolution from mainstream Judo. That's what BJJ is after all. And it's now a martial art on it's own, with different contest rules, different mindset, but also focused on randori, etc. the same principles of Judo, but it's not Judo in the restrict meaning of the word, but can be considered to be Judo in the broader view.

The fact that the Gracies had to figure out almost everything by themselves since they hadn't as much time as necessary under Maeda, may have lead them to believe that the "jiu-jitsu" they learned was not very refined... And that they themselves were the ones refining it, "putting a lever in each technique".

We have to keep in mind that while no one in the world was able to face the Japanese in the 1940s or 50s, the Gracies were already putting fierce competition against them, even winning over some of the Japanese masters of that time. This is a great accomplishment for Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. And it also shows that the Gracie clan had/has an enormous potential as martial artists.

I have gone to a few Gracie academies in my BJJ life, and I'm yet to meet a BJJer that acknlowledges Judo as BJJ father. But, to be honest, I'm yet to meet a BJJer interested in learning BJJ roots... Even most of my Judo fellows aren't interested in Judo history... So, I guess this is the norm, it's the abnormal in me calling :-)

It all comes to a point: it all depends on how you express yourself. If the Gracie's were humble or polite like Jigoro Kano, they would certainly be well regarded everywhere... Renzo, the Gracie I like most, is very respectful to Judo and so I own him much respect.

Or possibly it could be because Mizuno now makes BJJ gi's... http://www.mizunomartialarts.com/index.htm...;target=d9.htmlBy your dffinaition all gi's (Karate, TKD, Judo, Traditional Japanese Ju jitsu) are the same because their are only slight diffrences.I had to check my books again before I challenged your idea but I now have to disagree with you... Renzo and Royler's book gives credit to Kano for the changes he made to Ju jitsu but still claimed BJJ derived from traditional Ju jitsu. It wasn't until Renzo's book Mastering Ju jitsu that Judo was given it's true credit as the predecessor to BJJ, and even then he tried to claim the ground portion of Judo came from a separate style of Ju jitsu (can't remember the Ryu). The Gracie's, outside of Rorian, have more and more given Judo credit but they've had to be pushed into it every step of the way by events that have made it very difficult for them to stick to their original story.Considering it has been well established that Rickson competed in Sambo tournements prior to this one I (and others before me) call bulls**t!

Whenever I see footage of the Gracies competing in MMA contests or whatever, it always seems to me that they are simply doing judo, albeit without much throwing panache. The only thing that makes it not judo is that they say it's not judo but BJJ. Apart from that, when I see them in action it's a case of, "Look at that guy doing judo against some wrestler/kickboxer etc...."And they do do what they do well, I'll give them that. They've taken judo and applied it in a very effective way. It would just be nice if they were more up front in admitting that that is what they've done: taken JUDO and used it.That's why Gracie Judo fits for me. You can't really call it Brazilian judo (that's judo as practised in Brazil).And it isn't jujutsu, either. The fact that it's been called the wrong thing for ages doesn't mean we can't rectify that now.We've been made to call Peking Beijing after centuries of getting it wrong. Calling it Gracie Judo would better reflect the close connections between the two styles.

I personally disagree with this, just my thought though. Its all Judo. I personally believe that the multitude of so called BJJ developed techniques is a horrid misrepresentation of the truth. Youll see most everything from so called BJJ in old Judo, Kosen Judo, etc. Its not my intent to ignore BJJ for becoming so fantastic at what it is ..... but to simply recognize it for what it really is ... advanced Judo newaza. Yes many "sport" Judo clubs all but ignore newzwa, but there are those that do not, spending just as much time in newaza as they do nage waza. There are COUNTLESS BJJ books out there claiming, demonstrating, illustrating countless techniques thas they have "developed", honestly how often does one actually SEE these techniques landed? Stick to the basics of Judo, work to perfect them and youll do just as well in newaza as any BJJer youll find.

The world accepts that Sambo is not Judo. The world accepts that Judo is not Kito Ryu or Tenshin Shinyo Ryu (both of which had freeplay and the other attributes commonly ascribed to Kano Judo only). BJJ is not Judo.after all, Judo is just jujutsu is just sumai is just wrestling...X-guard as a position, not a single isolated move
Brabo choke
twister / wrestler's guillotine
50/50 setup heelhook
spider guard vs standing
all commonly utilized BJJ moves with no origin in Judo that I am aware of. There are more.BJJ is advanced judo newaza just like Judo is advanced Tenshin Shinyo and Kito Ryu grappling.

I think you may not have much experience doing BJJ. I tend to agree with you partially, I really face BJJ as a "kind" of Judo, that's why I call it Judo in the broader sense, but when you have:

1) different competition rules

2) different mindset

3) parallel evolution of techniques

4) different "unofficial" randori "rules" (yes, they exist in Judo too... :-)

5) different approach to teaching

Then you have something different from Judo... That's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.. WELL I HATE TO CALL IT BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU, for me it's only Jiu-Jitsu, as we ALL call it here in Brazil... We don't put Brazilian before...

Do you see no difference between BJJ and Judo? When you say someone has a BJJ background don't you automatically "know" with much confidence how it will behave? How he will fight?

You feel the same when you know someone has a Judo background, you automatically expect a more straight instance for example...

For me it's evidence that there's no way denying BJJ as a martial art... Rooted in Judo, thanks!!! I love Judo :-)

Kosen Judo also did not existed when Maeda left Japan, so there's NOT A SINGLE TRACE OF KOSEN JUDO in Brazil.. It's another evidence of the parallel evolution... All the Kosen moves arrived from constant specialization in Judo newaza... The same that happened with BJJ, but BJJ was WAY TOO MUCH MORE segregated from Judo, so the results were more drastical: a new martial art was born, new but similar!!!

Sambo is somewhat more different than BJJ. It had much influence from Judo, but it already had a school of grappling as background (traditional Russian grappling arts). BJJ is more similar to Judo because it is, again, sorry to repeat myself, a case of "parallel evolution"... It's not more evolved than Judo, it's just a manifestation of Judo which is known in Brazil as Jiu-Jitsu and elsewhere as Brazilian/Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

Judo when taught correctly will produce great newaza specialists too. BJJ will never produce a great tachiwaza specialist on it's own... That's why some people (my esteemed sensei included) dismiss BJJ as crippled Judo... They may have a point, but remember that Kano did take out many ancient throws from Judo, even the ultra-efficient Kani-basami was removed by Kodokan experts... The Gracies didn't find all those Judo throws to be effective in their day to day application of the art... It's much easier to drag someone to the ground and submit him instead of working a spectacular throw... For the sake of efficiency I think BJJ has a very good point... It's success in MMA is just evidence that great throws may not be the best way to win a fight, mainly over soft mats, and one-to-one...

That said, any newaza specialist with great tachiwaza skills will probably fare very well in BJJ, just see Jacaré's and Margarida examples.

One thing to disagree about is your statement "Jujutsu ended with the Meiji restoration and the end of the Samurai." (...) It did not. In fact, Tenjin Shinyō-ryū was only created barely 30 years before the Meiji restoration. Shindō Yōshin-ryū, for example, was created only about 5 years before the Meiji restoration.

Moreover, during the enbu in February earlier this year in Okayama, about 30 different jujutsu schools were present and participated, showing that jujutsu is still very much alive today.

Is jujutsu very much alive or is it practised much as people perform re-enactments of the English civil war, as a historical/cultural thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNH58RzuwPs

looks a bit like the way aikido is demonstrated

I'll reiterate that sharing techniques does not make them the same art.

In his 1914 book, Lessons in Wrestling and Physical Culture, Farmer Burns wrote, "In my opinion there is very little in the so-called Jiu-Jitsu teaching that is not included in a full and complete knowledge of catch-as-catch-can wrestling." Indeed, a Wrestler's double wrist-lock is Judo's ude-garami, and a Wrestler's flying mare is Judo's ippon seoi-nage, et cetera, et cetera. All of these techniques pre-dated the interaction between Judoka and Western wrestlers, in both circles.

Does that mean that Judo is nothing more than Catch-as-Catch-Can Wrestling?

As to how often one actually sees the techniques created by BJJ practitioners, I'll have to counter that they are seen very frequently. Marcelo's X-Guard and its setups are becoming very standard in competition; Bravo's Rubber Guard positions are very highly practiced and used; Brabo, Darce, and Anaconda chokes are all very common attacks. There are several techniques using the skirt of the Gi, either your own or your opponent's, to encircle and restrict or to effect a choke that are absent from any Judo book or instructional I've ever read (though, in truth, I don't claim to have extensive experience in that area), and which are quite illegal in Judo Shiai.

Don't you see the inherent fallacy in claiming, "BJJ is just Judo-- that is, if Judo were to completely alter its focus and develop in the manner that BJJ developed?"

--Joe

You might have glossed over this part, then:



While some of the historical aspects are a bit off-- Maeda was primarily taught by Tomita, not by Kano; et cetera-- it does show an acknowledgment that Maeda's primary training came from Judo.

--Joe

Maeda NEVER trained under a "classical" jiu-jitsu school. He did some SUMO before switching to Judo when he was a child.

Maeda didn't also insisted on describing his art as jiu-jitsu... It's already well explained: Jiu-Jitsu was known everywhere, Judo was completely unknown outside Japan at that time. All Brazilian newspapers called the art "from" Maeda as Jiu-Jitsu despite he never ever have done anything but Kodokan Judo and some sumo. Even much later, when Masahiko Kimura came to Brazil all newspapers called him the Japanese Jiu-Jitsu Champion, and he didn't insisted on correcting it to Judo, there was no point in that! It wasn't Maeda the one "insisting" on describing it Jiu-Jitsu either... But then you also have to remember that the distinction between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu was almost non-existent at that time... Using the broader term Jiu-Jitsu in place of Judo is not a misnomer. We don't know what he said inside his classes to Carlos Gracie, but I can see he telling "this jiu-jitsu that we learn comes from Kano sensei, and it's based on classical Jiu-Jitsu schools..."... And then you have also the language barrier... you get what I mean... No accuracy is to be expected. Only facts count as evidence, and the fact is that Maeda never studied any classical Jiu-Jitsu, only Kodokan Judo, the Gracie claiming BJJ influence to be mainly from classical jiu-jitsu is a historical error or a deliberate attempt at hiding the roots on Judo, which is an "active" martial art in contrast with classical jiu-jitsu, and BJJ does not want to be seen as a variation of Judo. Any classical jiu-jitsu influence in BJJ could only possibly taken place through Kodokan Judo own classical jiu-jitsu influences, nor directly.