read that heilo gracie has a 6th dan in judo, was wondering if this was true or not? surely who would have given him such a high grade? esspically because it would have been back in the say pre 1951, pre kimura fight. thought this was very odd as i thought such a high grade would have to be given to him by the kodokan. confused me a fair bit.

thanks

http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm

ive read this article in the past. but does not really answer my question. just says that kimura knew gracie as a judoka.

I have heard that too. But, would a Rokudan be award by the national judo org instead of the Kodokan ? So, maybe Brazilian regiters would provide more info.

"One day, Helio Gracie, judo 6th dan, issued a challenge to us." - Kimura



I read on Wikipedia that Helio Gracie is a kodokan ranked sandan but I have no way of verifying this.

I don't doubt it. After all, *everything* in wikipedia is true!

Based on everything I have reviewed, Helio Gracie has no Judo rank at all.
I find it very hard to believe that the Kodokan has any record of him at all.

CK has acces to the Kodokan files , I guess....

They were referring to "Judo" but it was really BJJ that they are discussing. Kimura just did not know of the name BJJ.

I read an article by a visiting judo body about Helio's club in the 60s. They recognized his club as judo. I always thought that he held a legitimate judo 6th Dan. If he didn't hold one, I'd like to know for sure.

Why are you asking this in the Yudanshakai? I would think the MMA thread would be better for an answer? Lets not have this section invaded with BJJ stuff. I dont care if any Gracie wears a red obi and calls himself O Sensei it is a BJJ debate.

Mike

Helio Gracie ? I wanna talk about shihan Linda !!

http://www.shihanlinda.com/02_sr_jiujitsu.html

We REALY need to talk! Lol

There are rumours (I have no proof), that the Kodokan awarded Gracie a rank around the time of the match with Kimura.

OMG! Not another one!
Is she anyway related to the dead king of Morrocco?

My oh my shihan linda,we all need to talk?

it is in this part of the forum, because it is in refrence to a potential high grade judoka. you will also notice no mention in my original post about it being about bjj. just IF helio has a 6th an in judo.


thanks

I think you will find the majority of posters in the Yudanshkai are judo dan grades so unlikely to be able to give you an answer? I think you would find the answer by reposting this question in the MMA section where many BJJ dan grades post.

Good luck with your studies,

Mike

i understand that. but in my mind it is a judo question not one of bjj. where is ck as it was mentioned he might be able to know abit more about this. still its weird dont you think (to hanon) that helio would be given a 6th dan, i was under the impression that back in the day that would have been awarded by the kodokan.

thanks

Hi Greco,

I cant answer your valid question. I just dont know the answer. I can but re write that this thread is used by judo dan grades and thus less able to help you. Please do give it a shot and re post in the MMA section, I think 24 hours would bring you an answer as there is a vast knowledge base there of BJJ and MMA that we dont have here in the Judo Yudanshakai.

The other option maybe to google the bio' of the man in question and see what that throws up?

Not knowing an answer is never a problem its a question of education to know where to look to find it. Here is, perhaps, not the place? I suspect very very few BJJ players read this thread? Good luck though.

Mike

Mike

I think the question is a very legitimate one and does belong here. Helio Gracie is one of the founders of BJJ and holds the rank of 10th Dan in BJJ. His rank in BJJ is not in question.

It appears in literature that he was valid holder of a 6th Dan in judo not BJJ. I have also read ,elsewhere from kimuras article, that Helio Gracie officially held a kokadan Dan rank in judo but can not find the citation.
It would require someone who has access to early records, has the time and the inclination can find out, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

The reason why it was brought here as the other forums can only speculate as no one there can legitimately ratify or deny this claim. Only some one close to the kokodan can. There is too much false information out there.

Here we go again. I have not said the question is not legitimate. I even wrote........"Valid question".......I want the best answer for the OP so I gave him the advice to ask in a forum section where BJJ dan grades post, they dont post here, this is more the Judo yudanshakai and perhaps not many judo dan grades would have studied BJJ, I know I havnt?

I am not questioning the question but where the question is asked?

Please let this be an end to it (on my part). Leave the post here but dont hold your breath. Thats all.

Best,

Mike

I don't know the answer to the original question, but just by figuring how many non-japanese held such high Kodokan Judo rank in 1951, I would say that it is highly improbable.
In those days, one would have to go to the Kodokan for many years to get anything past a 4th dan, like Leggett and Draeger did. Remember that we are talking about the days (early fifties) when judo black belts were extremely rare in the US and in Europe.

yes i have to agree its very odd. i read in the pyjama game that leggett was a fifth dan by 1942. and he spent a fair wack of time in japan. how could helio achieve such a high rank without to my knowledge ever having gone to japan? i think this is one that would afftect the roots to the general public about the founding of bjj. and we all know that count maeda was sent by kano to brazil to start up judo.

thanks

My understanding is that T. P. Leggett was promoted to rokyudan (6th dan) by winning a foreigner"s tournament at the Kodokan on December 7th, 1941, on the same day that the japanese attacked Pearl Harbor!
Yes, Kano did send Kodokan representatives to spread judo arround the world. And they probably had the power to promote their students as they saw fit. But in order to get advanced dan ranks, they would have to travel to Japan.
Maeda was not sent to Brazil by Kano, he first travelled to the US, Spain, Cuba, and other places in Centlal America, before settling in Brazil.

Helio has no Judo rank at all.

It should be fairly obvious as he has generally had nothing but disparaging things to say about Judo and the Japanese.

As for Helio Gracie's BJJ rank, I have never seen anything to indicate who actually promoted him.
For many years, BJJ didn't use their current version of the Kyu/Dan system.
It doesn't really matter as his skill speaks for itself.

There is no trace in the Kodokan records of anyone by the name of Helio Gracie holding a rank of 6th dan. To go through each lower rank and verify if he held any godan, yodan, sandan, nidan or shodan is a lot of work. He certainly did not hold Kodokan rokudan. Then again virtually non of the Brazillians with high ranks holds any equivalent Kodokan rank. Those who do, are virtually all native Japanese.

During the world masters in Sao Paulo last year there was gentleman walking around wearing a red belt, who apparently was held in great esteem. I have heard suggestions too about Kodokan rank. I knew that could not be true, as aside from Kobayashi, Awazu and Fukuda there is no Kodokan 9th dan holder living outside of Japan.

^ or so the Germans would have us believe...

She looks like the penguin (Danny DeVito) from the movie Batman Returns.

Here's a "brazilian zhoo zheetsoos" move: (helio "invented" this move too)

Actually Helio never claimed to invent moves, his claim is that he improved the setups for the moves. The moves themselves (especially basic ones like Hiza-Gatame) almost certainly predate recorded history. They're found in medieval European manuscripts for instance, and in North American native wrestling (which was separated from the rest of the world for 20,000 years). The human body only moves in so many ways, though if you really need an inventor it was probably Thog the caveman.

Interestingly enough, from what I've read Helio and Kimura developed respect for each other as they aged, and both spoke well of the other. If figure if Kimura could respect Helio's technique then who am I to disparage it?

Helio always said he improved leverage in the japanese techniques he learned cuz he was so much smaller and weak than his brother Carlos. So, a small man can beat a bigger man. As grown-up men, Carlos was about 5'7 and 135 pounds while Helio was almost 5'10 and 140 pounds. So that bull crap.

Plus, at the same period in time, you had Mifune at 5'3 and 110 pounds, doing wonders with pure-non-brazilian-modified-judo techniques... Helio and Mifune should have met ! Irony...

The belt system we see today in BJJ was apparently incorporated by Rolls Gracie in the 70's, at the same time the competition rules were adopted.

I wrote to Shimoyama-san at Kodokan asking for any information about Helio Gracie. So far, no reply. You apparently asked someone else. As to 9th Dan, I thought Shinohara-sensei was 9th Dan. He is living in California, I think.

Oh, and I was not sure whether your claim to a Pink Belt was not simply because you washed out the Red from your own obi.

Yes he did.

Kimura didn't respect his technique.
He respected his 'warrior spirit'.

Who really cares?

What does it matter?

Are you expecting to receive a response ?



Most certainly not. As pointed out, there are only Three Kôdôkan 9th dan-holders living outside of Japan, all Japanese.*

Shinohara-sensei holds the rank of Kôdôkan Shichidan, to which he was promoted in 1995.



Neither am I. It might be an honorary rank from the Gay Judo Society. I throw the accompanying cards to presents away without reading them, so I don't have to feel guilty or indebted.

But you keep the flowers

A question came up in one of these forums a few months ago asking about whether Helio Gracie had a Kodokan rank. An exhaustive search by one of the officials at the Kodokan returns an answer of, No. The Kodokan has no record of anyone named Helio Gracie.

The question leads to a new and even more interesting question: Is anybody surprised by this ?

From all those who give the right answer, I will draw to winners who get a free ticket to Beijing (per submarine, one way).

Surprising? Nope. Officially Carlos Gracie received two years of kodokan Judo in his teens, there's no chance he'd receive rank in such a short period of time let alone the ability to promote his sickly brother to such ranks. Now the real question should be from a technical stand point did the older generation of Gracie's deserve their ranks in Judo?

Well it surprises me.

Sorry Michael, you are disqualified from from the Lottery; you know too much. No free ticket for you.

No. I am actually surprised with someone doing this hipothesis. Even surprised that a research was needed to confirm it...

Well, you can never be sure without properly testing the hypothesis. In fact there is still a very small change that he does have a rank; he could still have been known under his maiden name before he changed gender.

You are right. BTW, I have some good hypothesis: Hélio Gracie can fly, breath under the water and stop bullets with his nose. Lets test them!

CK. You know the people who did the research for us at the Kodokan. It took them quite a while since they had to go beyond the current records on file and prowl through some archived stuff. I don't think I should ask another question that takes this much work for quite a while. In this case, given the notoriety of the person in question, my friends were willing to take the trouble.

Did you ask them to try his other name,

Cichorei Kano,

they may have his Kodokan rank under that name, he doesnt use it so often nowadays as people tend to call him Helio,

Hello Helio.

As far as I am concerned, unless someone can produce his Kodokan certificate or membership card, no additional requests for information will be submitted. Our friends at Kodokan already put in a lot of work on this wild-goose chase. We will simply have to assume that he was never officially registered with Kodokan since the can find no record of him in their current or archived files. I will be at the Kodokan in late June and early July. I may be able to find some evidence about this while I am there. I probably should have phrased my original question over the name "Gracie" instead of for one person with that surname.

The gracies claim that helio's rank records were burned in a fire at the first kodokan building.

does that surprise you?