Hi

Do many of the Judokas here cross-train with Japanese Jiu jitsu? and how effective do you view the self-defence applications of its techniques and training methods?

No, since there are very few people who have actually trained jujutsu, you are going to find even less who cross-trained. It was common at the dawn of the creation of judo for people from various jujutsu schools, in particulary Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, Kito-ryu, and Sosuishitsu-ryu to cross-train in Kodokan judo.

I cross-trained in judo and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu in Osaka a long time ago. If I understood him correctly, I believe another forum member (Steve Delaney) also cross-trained in both, but in Tokyo. Many old sensei (above 80 years) may as a child in Japan have cross-trained in both. Dr. Sachio Ashida is such a case. Today, the relatively esoteric koryu schools and the modern sports-type judo places in terms of focus and atmosphere have moved away from each other, and for most people you would be talking two quite different arts.

Japanese "Jiu Jitsu"???

Probably as opposed to the real Helio Gracie-jujutsu ?

Yes. What is called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a very distant cousin of original Jiu Jitsu. It is rather unfortunate that BJJ was not called something else since so many people have come to think that it really is the Jiu Jitsu. Instead, it seems to be a form of jacket wrestling with little semblance to original Jiu Jitsu. That doesn't mean it is a bad thing -- not casting aspersions on BJJ -- only that it seems to have little to do with original Japanese Jiu Jitsu.

There are, as CK mentioned, some of us elderly folk who did have the opportunity to do a little bit of training in some of the older styles of Jiu Jitsu many decades ago. Also, as CK suggests, there were many schools of JJ in Japan prior to the advent of Judo. (I was not around prior to the advent of Judo, notwithstanding some viewpoints to the contrary in this forum.) There continue to be a few schools of Jiu Jitsu (aka Jiu Jutsu, Ju Jutsu, etc.) in the U.S. and Japan. Some of these are founded on principles from Okazaki, et al. Wally Jay has a form of Jiu Jitsu. There is Kodenkan Jiu Jitsu. There are other styles, some of which are invented by people who have had some training in the more widely known styles. None of these Jiu Jitsu schools bear any resemblance to so-called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which seems primarily derived as an extension Judo ne waza, not from Jiu Jitsu.

Not so many, I reckon, but I do.

For background, note that there are surprisingly few active schools of 'jujutsu' in Japan; the ‘jujutsu’ term is more widely used overseas for some interesting (to martial arts historians) and not so interesting (e.g., homegrown ‘goshinjutsu’ styles) reasons. In fact, AFAIK most Japanese who don't practice martial arts don't even know the word jujutsu, while even those that do practice might explain it as ‘old style judo’. But that’s not necessarily unique to Japan; in Europe, AFAIK, most judoka don’t crosstrain in jujutsu or other styles.

In the earl 1900’s, before judo spread overseas and before it was fully established and ascendant in Japan, several Japanese traveled overseas and taught a number of jujutsu styles. A handful of Westerners in Meiji Japan and overseas studied jujutsu from Japanese and took portions of their training to the West; one of the more interesting examples was the English engineer E.W. Barton-Wright, who traveled around Japan working in the effort to establish the first Japanese rail systems. He probably studied at least a couple of different styles of jujutsu in different cities around Japan, and upon his return to London recruited a couple of young Japanese to come as instructors, and established a dojo to teach his 'Bartitsu' style synthesized from his experience. (It is the famous 'Baritsu' mentioned by Sherlock Holmes.) See http://www.geocities.com/lone_wolf_92001/Index.html
and the Bartitsu Forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bartitsu_Forum/
for some of the details unearthed by the Bartitsu Society, a group of enthusiasts and researchers.

For me the notable jujutsu schools in Japan (outside of BJJ, of which I know nothing except there are some dojo in Tokyo) are koryu styles, of which CK mentions several. I know Japanese and Western judoka who now explore koryu jujutsu styles, drawn for a variety of reasons, including interest in the history, heritage, self defense techniques, the search for novelty, whatever. Some of these judoka studied judo only in high school and college, stopped afterwards, and now are interested non-competitive, more traditional martial arts, but often have a solid foundation in judo. (There are untold numbers of aikido offshoots that incorporate tons of jujutsu technique, but they call themselves something else, and typically draw their lineage from one of more of the aikido legacies.)

There are also at least a handful of modern jujutsu styles in Japan. Some draw lineages from various koryu or are based on the pre-war, pre-aikido aikibudo of Ueshiba sensei (I’ve studied one of these for years). Others such as Sato Kinbei sensei’s Daiwado ryu jujutsu are modern styles drawn from a number of older styles. I’m not sure but might try to put that Mochizuki sensei’s Seibukan jujutsu in that category, since he studied prewar aikibudo under Ueshiba and prewar judo. Others attempted this; witness Rokugo ryu jujutsu (based in Tokyo, it collected techniques from six different koryu jujutsu schools) and Higo ryu taijutsu (also a synthesis of techniques from 6 schools from the city of Kumamoto, previously known as Higo), styles seemingly developed as counters to the growing popularity and central government recognition and support of Kodokan judo; most failed and seem defunct.

CK notes some koryu styles, while there are others still active around Japan with some number of active dojos: these include Daito ryu, Takeuchi ryu, Araki ryu, Yagyu Shingan ryu, etc. Others are essentially seem to be limited to a single active dojo with only a very small numbers of practitioners, such as Shosho ryu, Shibukawa ryu, Ishiguro ryu, and others.

I'm sure there are some individuals that cross train judo, but don't know if they're on the forum; I don’t know many of them that hang out on English websites. You might find more that cross train in judo and aikido, a much more common art in Japan.

Almost without exception those koryu jujutsu I’ve named (the exception I don't know anything about personally is Kito ryu, reportedly one of the more esoteric schools, but have seen most of the others, practiced a couple briefly and informally w/ qualified friends, and practice one regularly myself) even if called 'jujutsu', can generally be classified as sogo bujutsu, or ‘general martial arts’ if you would. That is, they use a range of weapons and techniques, including bo, jo, hanbo, bokken, naginata, spear, iaito, etc., in addition to unarmed grappling and techniques for use in situations against an opponent armed with a range of weapons, along dissimilar weapons kata (e.g., jo against sword, sword against naginata or spear). And even some koryu kenjutsu styles still maintain grappling techniques, too, although many seem lost to time.

Focusing on the grappling portions (which go by a variety of traditional names), I am in no way an expert in of the ancient arts, but my impressions, clearly generalizations, and without violating various traditional confidentialities, are as follows:
- Some jujutsu styles have tremendous self defense techniques and kata (bearing in mind that the training style almost invariably kata).
- With the variety of weapons of a variety of lengths, my sense of ma-ai (interval) has perhaps been stressed (enhanced?) more than it would be otherwise. A large range of weapons, from empty hand to long spear, made me, at least, more me aware of intervals.
- Some of the throws could be lethal, and many joint locks or throws could easily break or dislocate joints. These can be hard or impossible to practice realistically at full speed / force without damaging uke. So how do you know they’d really work, or how well? Some seem hard to tell.
- Some kata such as strikes to eyes or throat can’t be practiced (at least not in most traditional styles; some guys will don karate protective gear and go at it, but they’re really different gents, not your normal practitioners).
- Some of the assumptions behind certain kata are not pertinent to the modern world (e.g., you’re wearing armor, two swords stuck in your obi, the hilts of which can be deadly obstacles to you or impromptu weapons themselves, you’ve lost the blade of your spear, now you’re carrying a long bo, maybe in a narrow alley, you’re in a space with a very low ceiling and have to draw a sword or defend against one) but make sense in the context of pre-Meiji Japan (which is the definition of koryu, a pre-1867 style). But that’s the kata, it’s not meant to be updated for the modern world. A friend calls them the ‘Model A’s of martial arts techniques’; some people like to collect old, barely functional cars, while others think it’s a waste of time. But since these, too, are part of the syllabus, you don’t get to pick and choose, so a significant amount of your time can be spent on techniques that seem less than useful in self defense.
- Many moves seem unenlightened by kuzushi, or the kuzushi that is introduced comes from a preliminary strike or shove before the throw or joint lock. This can be very hard to practice realistically.
- The movements can be very strong, but often use power and leverage to overcome an opponent rather than kuzushi.
- Many of the kata seem very linear to me. To perform correctly some per certain kata, you have to move a significant distance back or forward, which may be fine if you’re in one-on-one combat and someone is guarding your back. But if your back is to a wall, perhaps you can’t move back. What then?
- Some of the koryu kata are simply nasty, direct. Slashes to the femoral artery to bleed out an opponent, slowing them down for the kill. Hand to gland. Leg hocks (osoto gake) with the opponent’s head forced back so that the skull impacts first, no chance for ukemi. Offbalancing forward then a knee to the face / elbow to the base of the skull. A big overhead throw with a kick to the base of the skull on the way down. Not nice. Of course, you’ve got to get your opponent in that bad position first, and judo is superb at training that.

None of this is surprising from a judo standpoint, I’d guess, given the effort to weed out the most dangerous techniques and make the modern jujutsu that became judo safe for practice.

There is plenty of raw material for the study of jujtsu in the judo kata; many major techniques are there, they just need to be pulled out and practiced safely. Viola’ – instant jujutsu syllabus.

Cheers,

We have at present 3 active Judoka in our Jujutsu Dojo and a larger number of those who have trained Judo.
Sensei Lamond competed in Judo for Trimont Dojo in the early 60s in NY. There is alot of Judo in our throws and groundfighting, both by the fact that Jujutsu had them first but also in some areas, Judo made them better.

!!! You don't say....!

Shouldn't that be Soke Professor Dr. Helio-shinahn's koryu Gracie-ryuha bujutsu?

I'm new to both but the karate school I'm trying out also teaches jujutsu (and kobudo as well). The judo school I'm attending also does BJJ. I just started and may not keep training at both dojos (not sure if my wallet or body can take both for long!) but for now I guess you could say I'm sort of cross training. Already I find myself blocking close in karate sometimes wondering what I'd do in this situation in judo... So far for some (good) reason I've never felt the urge to kick anyone in judo, probably because so far there hasn't been any sparring in karate. Forgetting which dojo I'm in would be a bad thing!

To avoid confusion, note that there is a reason why I limited myself to mentioning only the three jujutsu schools I did and not more. That is because particularly those schools had a long history of cross-training with Kodokan judo, because of their privileged relationship with Kano-shihan. Most jujutsu schools which NBK mentioned are indeed existing, legitimate jujutsu schools, but with no mention worthy but occasional incidents of cross-training with Kodokan judo. I also trained iaijutsu, but that school has no documented systematic history of cross-training with Kodokan judo either.

I suppose I'm the other side of the fence. I've been doing Japanese jujutsu since about 1995, but originally was doing judo & Tomiki aikido before that. I still have an interest in judo since it's so close to what I do, and has better newaza than most koryu jujutsu. I don't actively train judo, mostly just collect books on it (love the Kodansha books) and lurk on websites.

Practice reminded me of an important difference - while judo seeks to throw uke on his back, jujutsu often brings down uke on his front, face down. Very effective and a safe relative position from which to pursue the next steps.

Not exactly fair play in mind here. If there's no reason to give your opponent a fighting chance, don't.

The Danzan Ryu style of jujitsu contains a lot of judo throws and ne waza, although some of the names of moves are different. Currently in our dojo we do both the Danzan jujitsu and judo.

Hi,

I'm new to the forum so hello all. At the school I go to we do an hour Judo, Then hour Jujitsu/Judo groundwork. Then an hour jujitsu.

Wrestling does the same actually. It's not so much a question of fair play, but of how points are scored in the various disciplines.

well lets say for instants that Im not a judoka...or never had any martial arts like the general public....I dont think I want to be dropped on my head or have an arm broken or my neck stretched out till Im 6 ft 7....

That is a nice mix, 3 hours can be a lttle long and taxing, but what a great blend.
Your school covers alot of grappling bases, its a good hedge of your bet so to speak cause genreally Judoka's have the best throws, JiuJitsudors have the best groundfighting from a disadvantged position and size standpoint and Jujutsuka's are good at come alongs, snapping limbs, breaking necks, especially where weapons and surprissed attacks are involved.

A little striking and modern weapons and your good to go.

Shugyo to you!

Dylan

Jiu Jitsu IS Japanese .

Brazilian JJ doesn't exist , just like Japanese Capoeira . BJJ is not JJ but a wrestling style .

Thanks! Yes I really enjoy the blend. I've been there about a year now. It's a small club, sometimes there might only be 6 people there in the adult class. At one point it was myself and 5 other black belts lol So i used to get great tution but beaten up alot lol

You can go to one, two or three hours of the class it's up to you. Some just come for the jujitsu which is a shame as I really enjoy Judo. But you can see a slight difference in the throw between those that just go jujitsu and those who do both - those that do both are better lol You can see that those who just do jujitsu often tend not to break the persons balance as much as those who do both.

It's also a bit easier to go through your jujitsu belts as you already know the throws/locks/etc so you just have to learn the bit that goes round it hehe

They do a wednesday class which i don't go to which is jujitsu only and they do weapons then.

But as you say it is a nice blend and they do overlap and compliement each other. Throw muay thai in and I'm ready to fight in the UFC lol (Not!)

"And the challenger BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEFFFFFFAHH!"

I trained in japanese jujitsu for about 8 years. When I started judo I told myself that I would learn judo whole without adding in any modifications from my jujitsu experience. I have now learned that the mix for real life is good. There are a number of harmful techniques that you learn in japanese jujitsu that kano took out, that if mixed are deadly. It is hard now days to find a school with a good lineage to learn japanese jujitsu. That is actually how I got into judo. I was looking to get back into the art and could not find a school, so I found judo. The main differences, in judo you don't want to be on your back, in jujitsu the safest place in on your back.

What style of Japanese jujutsu emphasizes being on your back?

Actually, JUJUTSU is Japanese!

"Jiu jitsu" means nothing in japanese... It is a very confused way of spelling it besides that.

It could be the same one my cat practices. She applied it on my once again with her known effectiveness just yesterday. The marks are still visible.

It may have been the way that I was trained if you are not familiar with it. Japanese jujitsu is japanese jujitsu. People train differently all over. I was taught jujitsu that is very defensive and counter heavy. you don't just fall to your back, but i would much rather be on my back on the ground than on top in guard. especially against more than one opponent. but like i said earlier, everyone trains different.Ahhh, I see you know internet tough guy style.

Actually, from my experience in Koryu, everyone in a specific Ryu will always train the same (for historic reasons as well). Well to be honest I'm not really sure about jutjutsu ryu in particular but in kenjutsu and iaijutsu this definitely is the case. Waxtutor, what was the name of the jujutsu ryu in which you studied?

I don't think that you are going to get a straight answer to that...

Why not? It shouldn't be THAT hard to answer? =S

I am not tough at all; my cat is, and she is a girl (if that still suprises anybody); women just have a natural way of using their nails even without ever having received any special training in it.

So, which jujutsu style did you train in again ?

The famous neko-ryu dojo where your cat trained.

I think BJJ would be better described as Gracie Judo.

Yep, that's right. Great post!

I'd be interested in learning Japanese Capoeira.

Yeah, same as "Canadian Muay Thai" & "French Kendo".

Japanese Capoeira:

^Cool photos. Where did you get them from? I did Capoeira for about 2 months at the beginning of this year and it was great fun!

Brazilian Sushi:



British Curry:



American Pizza:

Hi, I train Danzan Ryu jujutsu and recently took up judo. I took up judo because, while my original sensei was big on randori and sumo in the dojo, he retired and I started getting hungry for continued opportunities to test what I was learning.

Danzan Ryu is not a Koryu but does have some major influence from both Koryu and Kodokan judo. They can go together quite well for self defense.

It is too bad that Danzan Ryu is often not tested more and this trend may be "watering down" the efficacy of it. I know we can't go around performing dojo arashi (yaburi) but a little shiai and even sumo never killed anyone!

-Ian C

PS No offense to DZR peeps, I know some of you are keeping the Bu in Budo!

You're ignorance knows no bounds. Gunther just LOVES the brazilian zhou-zheetsoos!!! He's SOLD on it!

His ignorance knows no bounds?

This one I'll concede.Brazilian ingredients?It's ok to admit that you don't know the difference between American and Italian Pizza, and Indian and British curry. It's also ok to admit that you do not know the difference between Judo and BJJ because of obvious reasons. (I guess it has something to do with people actually sampling the food from different places and training different arts )

Its not that they dont know ... but that they dont know they dont know .. and THAT is a WHOLE NEW level of ignorance.

Koryu, Gendai ... what the heck are you talking about!!!! What the heck is that, and what the heck does it have to do with Japanese Martial Arts!!!!

That Brazilian sushi does not look like anything I had at a sushiya in Japan. Although I think it would probably best be called pacific rim cuisine around these parts. You know, like a California roll taken too far (as if it wasn't already!).

Boy, this forum goes off topic a lot!

I got a friend who does jujutsu and has been trying to get me into a class sometime. So I'm going to try out a practice tomorrow.
I forgot what style it was, but it had a weird name (even for a jujutsu name it was weird ) I'll edit when I remember.
The name is ito okita. Anyone heard of it? Can't find a whole lot on the internet about it...

This topic was very helpfull for what I can expect. I'll tell you my impression afterwards. =)

I would if i could find a decent dojo here

Alright, I came back from the practice very satisfied. It was more or less what I expected, but seeing and doing it yourself is thousand times better than merely discussing it =)

The jujutsu sensei (4th dan) was also a black belt in Judo, so he knows where I'm coming from. He helped me focus on what makes jujutsu different from judo and what's still the same.
The most important difference is that jujutsu is meant as self defence. And that changes everything, the tai sabaki, the kind of the moves, some of the form... In jujutsu they keep in mind that the opponent can do everything: strikes, kicks, attacks with a knife, etc. That's why they want to get away from potential attacks first, by moving on the side for instance. Then they quickly apply a wristbar or armbar, eventually give an extra hit, and then proceed into a throw, just to put the ennemy in a totally harmless position.
It's not a big step from judo to jujutsu. Many principles of judo are present in jujutsu, most noticably the use of technique instead of power. And the knowledge of judo helps greatly with the armbars and throws. (Throws are way less important though, no pointscoring exist, getting him/her on the floor is the only purpose in the end) I'm sure there is more judo helps with but I'm not yet that experienced to find everything.
How jujutsu would help a judoka in return? It's difficult for me to say after just one practice, but I think it improves the awareness of techniques. Especially combinations between the standing position into groundpositions, with focus on working on the submission in time. Off course armbarring your opponent while your still standing is not a good idea in judo, but you can hold his hand in the right spot so it's there to armbar immediatly once ne waza has started.

Here are the impressions of a relatively new judoka. (4 years experience isn't that much huh ^^)

By the way, I heard ito okita meant chinese-mongolian. It's characteristic is not to go backwards ever. That's all I know for now.

Of course.

'Okita' was the fake name of Maurice Minne, brother of Alexander Minne, the latter who used the fake name Ito Minne. Alexander Minne was an under-officer of the so-called Second Hunters by Foot in Mons in Belgium. He was a spectator when in 1905 Yukio Tani in the South Palace in Brussels at the Stalingrad Boulevard near the Brussels South Station gave a demonstration in jujutsu. Alexander Minne during the next year together with the wrestler Julien Merck, a fencing champion, created the Institut d'Education Physique Merckx-Minne. He copied what in France the wrestler Guy de Montaillard had done, who had changed his artist name Regnier into the fake Japanese name Re-Nie. Thus Alexander adopted the name Ito to sound Japanese, though 'Ito' is an existing Japanese name.

Alexander 'Ito' Minne padded his resume by claiming he would have fought Yukio Tani, Yakitaro Ono , Miyake Taro. More than likely these stories are completely made up. Minne had never trained jujutsu. He later also faked his starting date into 1902, to antedate it before Yukio Tani and make it look like his imported jujutsu himself. Minne did have substantial wrestling training and skills, but never went to either England or France where the first Japanese jujutsu experts had arrived in Europe to learn those skills. In 1952 he died, and he was succeeded by his brother Maurice 'Okita' Minne. Like his brother Alexander, Maurice does also used a fake name 'Okita'. One of Minne's pupils was Georges Ravinet. Ravinet became the first Walloon judoka, which he had learnt from a Frenchman visiting Brussels, and afterwards he visiting Paris. Ravinet left Minne in 1947 and became one of the most important figures in the creation of the Belgium Judo Federation. He also later became the first Belgium blackbelt in judo. Ravinet did not continue 'jujutsu'.

The person who later did continue 'jujutsu' was George Leroy from Brussels. He continued working under Minne and later became an independent budo teacher in Brussels. I do not know if he is still alive. If he is, he would more than likely be the only surviving direct pupil of the Minnes.

Other students of Minne at the start in 1906 were Carl Brichard, Pierre de Crawez, Henri Defreyn, Henri de Hollander, Chevalier de Thier, J. Dumont, L. Geeraerts, Pierre Grindeau, Louis Meur, en C. Skess. The most well-known pupil was Victor Boin, later the first president of the Belgium Olympic Committe. I believe that in 1965 (or something) according to reports, he was supposedly awarded an honorary shodan by the Kodokan. This appeared in newspapers. Upon me trying to verify this with the Kodokan, there records department denied this.

In conclusion, there does not exist anything called Okita jujutsu. At best, it may be the combination of the wrestling techniques Alexander 'Ito' Minne had learnt together with some memories he had from as a spectator having watched Yukio Tani. His Brother Maurice 'Okita' Minne never had a jujutsu education either and learnt from his brother who also did not have a jujutsu education.

If you want to know more, you have to read my book.

By the way, Boin was a quite remarkable chap though. He obtained three Olympic medals and this in completely different disciplines. On the Olympics of 1908 and 1912 he obtained silver and bronze in waterpolo, and in the Olympics of 1920 in Antwerp he obtained silver in fencing. He also was the person to lead the Olympic oath. Rumor has it that Boin was very strong and had unique skills. Apparently he would have been able to lift a bar table using nothing but his teeth !

I've seen a few that are decent. Usually that teach Judo or Sambo also. And even then their "Japanese Ju Jutsu" seems generally to have been made up by non-Japanese.

www.seattle-jujutsu.org for one.

Every exclusively Japanese Ju Jutsu place I have seen was populated by a bunch of chubby, pasted faced hippy types that couldn't fight a 2nd grader.

JiuJitsu means Soft Art. Meaning it relies on the use of technique to overcome the enemy. I'd say judo can be considered a jiujitsu and so can just about every other MA style, except perhaps Sumo. Jiujitsu need not be Japanese, though since the word is Japanese, some people identify it only with disciplines that pertain to Japan. Gracie JiuJitsu is a style of the Soft Art that was started by the Gracie family. It emphasizes joint locks, chokes, the principle of position before submission and live training in the ground during practice.