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charlie
I've heard of kung-fu 'iron hand' conditioning ... I think one traditional form was to drive your hand into a buck of beans over and over, then a bucket of rice, then, sand, then pebbles, etc etc ... while rubbing various herbal ointments in ('jow') .... anyone have experience with that? I wonder if it would be effective to prevent the need for bandages on fingers, as protection from skin damage suffered from gripping?
Miss Kitty Fantastico
QUOTE(charlie @ Aug 27 2007, 08:32 AM) *
I've heard of kung-fu 'iron hand' conditioning ... I think one traditional form was to drive your hand into a buck of beans over and over, then a bucket of rice, then, sand, then pebbles, etc etc ... while rubbing various herbal ointments in ('jow') .... anyone have experience with that? I wonder if it would be effective to prevent the need for bandages on fingers, as protection from skin damage suffered from gripping?



Brandon (FMA) makes us do some iron hand stuff at the end of class occassionally - and it hurts a lot. Most we do 'forearm clashes' and not the 'wiggle sand about with your fingers' thing. The point is to train your muscles so that they are relaxed when struck

So, no idea, but maybe? Talked to Kirk Lawson?
Tafftaz
QUOTE(charlie @ Aug 27 2007, 09:32 AM) *
I've heard of kung-fu 'iron hand' conditioning ... I think one traditional form was to drive your hand into a buck of beans over and over, then a bucket of rice, then, sand, then pebbles, etc etc ... while rubbing various herbal ointments in ('jow') .... anyone have experience with that? I wonder if it would be effective to prevent the need for bandages on fingers, as protection from skin damage suffered from gripping?


I have no idea if this would work ,but I would be very interested in hearing any results that you get.
Interesting post.
HALFORD JONES
By now,most of you are probably aware of the various systems that utilize the iron palm, hand, body,etc. as numerous books and videos are now available and mass produced for consumption. However, as far as the Chinese systems go the various herbal solutions and liniments are needed and these 'wines' vary in mixture and strength(some are nearly toxic and overwhelming) and can be expensive. I purchased my first mixture from the late Ark Wong Yuey years ago and have used that as a standard by which to judge such things. While in Manila, I had occasion to look at such things and many persons who delve and deal in such practices and have to say that you need to begin slowly, practice daily, wash the hands in liniment(avoid getting into your mouth) and do various strikes according to a systematic approach. The older methods used in karate without the herbs and liniments,while producing some awesome hands usually didn't make use of such things. Far too many people start out by hitting or pounding things to their own detriment. Incidentally, developing the iron palm or hand does not imply that you will know how to use it,especially in a self-defense situation.
Jason T.
I heard of this stuff before, I've looked into it a little bit, but if you're gonna try it out, I'd look for a qualified instructor. Maybe somebody who's cross-trained in Chinese martial arts, or is a Chinese martial arts instructor. If you get the stuff from wrong sources, you're at the risk of two things, to be ripped off, and to die. If somebody isn't qualified to make Dit Dat Jow, then they may be doing it wrong.
Inferus
Good if you want arthritus in later life :)
ncy_czn
now I don't understand why the palm needs to be conditioned. I could strike a brick wall with my palm without it hurting. now the fist is another story and I could see the point in that bit...
Tomas
QUOTE(Inferus @ May 12 2008, 10:30 PM) *
Good if you want arthritus in later life :)


word!

:)
rubberchickenjudo576
it doesn't seem logical for judo, nor does it appear that it would help you get rid of the tape. Think about it - it involves pushing your hands and fingers into substances. Judo involves holding onto your opponent. The direction is completely opposite.

I also agree that you'd be more likely to get arthritis at an earlier age. After all, you are deliberately injuring your fingers.

Oh, and breaking a brick with the palm of your hand can hurt. Heck, you can even break your own bones that way.... Granted, knuckles hurt worse, but there's still pain and the threat of a broken bone or so....
kiteonastring
at my kung fu school we do some grip training that would probably go great with a judo workout. Take little bags of dry beans (about 3 pounds at first, 6 if you feel good about yourself) and grab a partner. stand about twenty feet away and take turns throwing back and forth with one arm. When you catch the bag, only use one hand and try to grip with your fingers. its a lot harder than it sounds, and i do a horrible job of explaining it.
Master Brian Gray
QUOTE(charlie @ Aug 27 2007, 08:32 AM) *
I've heard of kung-fu 'iron hand' conditioning ... I think one traditional form was to drive your hand into a buck of beans over and over, then a bucket of rice, then, sand, then pebbles, etc etc ... while rubbing various herbal ointments in ('jow') .... anyone have experience with that? I wonder if it would be effective to prevent the need for bandages on fingers, as protection from skin damage suffered from gripping?


Legitimate Chinese Iron Palm training will indeed make your hands much stronger and less susceptible to damage from any type of training. After all, that was the original intent of this art, to produce a hand that was not only lethal, but able to withstand the tremendous amount of pressure that would be exerted on it once the practitioner reached the higher levels. In my new book series, for details go to www.ultimateironpalm.com, I discuss and thoroughly detail all of the traditional and legitimate training necessary for one to attain all of the various levels of the Iron Palm. I break it down scientifically, showing the physics behind the mysteries, thus showing how fact, not fiction, makes all of this possible. Do be aware that there are some unscrupulous frauds out there who are offering some very dangerous subsitutes. One guy has his students thrusting their hands into lead and copper pellets, which any person familiar with basic science knows will ultimately lead to poisoning and death. Still, another guy has his students slapping coconuts, claiming that since coconuts are round, they resemble the human head. While this may seem reasonable to an unlearned lay person, the truth is that the Chinese who invented this system never trained with coconuts. The guy who came up with this fraudulence was declared mentally insane by the state of California, but his damage is still making the rounds. If you want to know my credentials, and thus, my right to say that what I am telling you is correct, you can also visit www.briangray.com. I am currently featured in this month's issue of Inside Kung Fu magazine. I head the Iron Palm International Organization, and in 2003, Inside Kung Fu magazine named me as one of the 30 Most Influential Masters of the Past 30 Years, along with Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Jet Li. While I am humbled and flattered to receive this accolade, I only list it here so that you know I am a serious and legitimate representative of the art of the Chinese Iron Palm, and that I am only too happy to help share this knowledge with the public so that the genuine material gets into the hands of those seeking the information. There is just too much dangerous fraudulence out there for me to remain uninvolved. Hope this has been of some help to you, and good luck with your studies in the wonderful art of Judo.
Cady Goldfield
QUOTE(charlie @ Aug 27 2007, 04:32 AM) *
I've heard of kung-fu 'iron hand' conditioning ... I think one traditional form was to drive your hand into a buck of beans over and over, then a bucket of rice, then, sand, then pebbles, etc etc ... while rubbing various herbal ointments in ('jow') .... anyone have experience with that? I wonder if it would be effective to prevent the need for bandages on fingers, as protection from skin damage suffered from gripping?


What Inferus said. Arthritis galore. The human hand was never meant to be pounded like a meat-tenderizing mallet or used as a bludgeon on hard surfaces. It's a delicate instrument. If we were meant to slam it on things, we'd have hooves instead. ;)

I swear, every time the topic of "iron hand" comes up, I feel my hackles stand on end. Not all "traditional" types of training and conditioning were based in sound science or healthy practices. Possibly, "iron hand" came from the misconception that it was the strength of the hands and the toughness of the skin that allowed kungfu masters to penetrate stone blocks and wooden plankes with their bare hands. In actuality, it's good form combined with simple physics/mechanics -- F=MA.

When you strike with minimal surface area, while accelerating your body mass and using proper alignment (so the force of the strike doesn't get dumped into a bent joint, etc.), the effect is like that of a tornado wind driving a slender piece of straw through a tree trunk: the velocity and acceleration, plus the application of concentrated force over a very tiny surface area (the pin-princess sized tip of the piece of straw) makes it seem miraculous when the straw drives into an oak. Because the straw is straight -- no bends -- the force is transmitted smoothly through the straw and penetrates the wood.

Similarly, the human hand transmits force through a small surface area (2-3 knuckles close together, or the thin "blade" of a knifehand/shuto) and has the person's body mass behind it, accelerating. The hand's narrow surface is like a knife going through watermelon, and at great speed, so seldom is the skin damaged if the strike is done properly.
HALFORD JONES
This debate will go on and on until you actually take up iron palm, iron fist, iron body,etc. training in the suggested proper manner for such. You have to spend some time and work slowly and study areas other than mere striking hard or soft objects. There are certain areas of the hand that are better utilized for some strikes to the body,for examply. Take the areanear the wrist from the little finger side and see how that can be used, as it,indeed is, in some styles of kungfu. As for a basic formula for tit da chou or dit da jow,etc. etc. there are numerous concoctions already made for use on a commercial basis,but the real 'iron hit' wines are very potent and can be dangerous to use,as some contain cinnebar or mercury. There are procedures to soak the hands,etc. Iron body is another thing that few actually undergo, but essentially it consists of flagellating the body in various ways. As for arthritis, I am 72 years old and have trained my hands on and off over the years in various ways and DO NOT HAVE ARTHRITIS. I am not an iron palm specialist but only an enthusiast. I prefer the Chinese methods of toughening to the Japanese,Korean,etc. ways, especially being hit with a shinai to strenthen my spirit.
Cady Goldfield
I did "conditioning" I was a kungfu student (well-known schools), as well as the Japanese version when I was I was in karate, and figured out pretty early on that it was superfluous and potentially damaging. Once you realize the true nature of punching and striking -- where the force emanates from, and the mechanics/physics -- it becomes pretty obvious that it's not about your hands.

At best, toughened skin -- on the surface -- may help reduce discomfort in a badly-executed punch. Sort of in the same way that the callouses your fingers develop when playing guitar, help reduce future discomfort... when playing guitar.

Heck, I can tell you that as a professional horticulurist/gardener with calloused hands, the toughened skin confers little, if any, benefit for anything other than making it less painful when I do the repetitive, friction-causing movements when working with my hands and with the gardening tools that caused the callouses in the first place!

QUOTE(HALFORD JONES @ Sep 2 2008, 10:58 AM) *
This debate will go on and on until you actually take up iron palm, iron fist, iron body,etc. training in the suggested proper manner for such. You have to spend some time and work slowly and study areas other than mere striking hard or soft objects. There are certain areas of the hand that are better utilized for some strikes to the body,for examply. Take the areanear the wrist from the little finger side and see how that can be used, as it,indeed is, in some styles of kungfu. As for a basic formula for tit da chou or dit da jow,etc. etc. there are numerous concoctions already made for use on a commercial basis,but the real 'iron hit' wines are very potent and can be dangerous to use,as some contain cinnebar or mercury. There are procedures to soak the hands,etc. Iron body is another thing that few actually undergo, but essentially it consists of flagellating the body in various ways. As for arthritis, I am 72 years old and have trained my hands on and off over the years in various ways and DO NOT HAVE ARTHRITIS. I am not an iron palm specialist but only an enthusiast. I prefer the Chinese methods of toughening to the Japanese,Korean,etc. ways, especially being hit with a shinai to strenthen my spirit.

CSS
Iron Palm/hand conditioning.

To be cautioned,(a few decades ago) by an elderly instructor about the possible side effects was an eye opener.

"You have not had children yet! Do you know what Iron Palm training can do? This is only for men who have had children or do not want them."

Constant hard strikes to the base of your palm.

There is a meridan there.

Traditional Kappo for treatment of a groin strike includes arms under the Tori's arms whilst Tori is seated and drop Tori onto the sacrem from a few centimetres height. Alternate strikes of the instep of your foot to Tori's (approximately) glutes whilst Tori is sitting in front of you with legs straight out front - focus on opposite side to the strike; closed fist strikes to the sole of Tori's foot at the heel; and massaging of the heel of Tori's palm relieves the pain of the groin strike.

Iron palm strikes focus on the heel of your palm.

Yes with Iron hand and such training you get very good at hitting hard and you can learn to take hits.

As for gripping strength - the targets are usually to grab someone's windpipe whilst also a bit of their six pack or lower.

The training is not designed for improving grip strength in Judo terms.

The hand and arm positions practised are probably not beneficial for Judo.
RHD
I've seen it, done it, and know several who have and/or do practice it. Its for striking. Its efficacy vs. anything other than a stationary object is questionable. In my experience, if striking's your thing, a person is better off hitting a heavy bag.
HALFORD JONES
It is obvious from the recent posts in regards to mine that opinions will vary based on whatever actual personal experience one really has concerning the use of hands in all kinds of things, including manual labors of all kinds, ranging from gardening(minus gloves so you can get the real feel of real earth and dirt against your hands) to old time logging and fishing,etc. Most of you today are armored up for such activities and do not know the contact that human flesh might have with dirt, wood, rocks, etc. except when you fall down and skin your knees when you've forgotten your knee pads. I suspect that some of you also piss your pants when you forget your diapers, but that is another matter. Aside from this, the fact is that everyone views the iron palm and all its variations as simply a way to do better breaking of static objects, like bricks and stones,etc. or wood,etc. In actuality they do not and I repeat, do NOT know how to apply the iron palm in actual fighting situations! I do not claim to be any kind of expert at any of this but I would suggest you take another look at things more carefully. Of course, training in the iron palm,etc. is NOT FOR EVERYONE! It is just like training in killing is not for everyone. You can expand the list of; NOT FOR EVERYONE to suit yourselves. Most of you are too rigid in your thinking, obviously highly opinated, though I suspect many of you think otherwise, and you all need to have a better sense of humor, more tolerance of risk in your lives, and take the information you all possess and try to turn it into actual knowledge! Have a great day and have an interesting time!
Master Brian Gray
Iron Palm is a legitimate fighting skill, however, not everyone who claims to know, or teach, the Iron Palm is legitimately skilled in the Chinese Iron Palm theories. In my nearly fifty years in this art, I've seen enough frauds out there to know how they operate. However, if you are trained in the legitimate Iron Palm, then you follow this series of levels: conditioning to withstand the pressures on the hand when breaking skills begin (and this requires legitimate Iron Palm liniment, or you can be permanently disfigured.); learning the physics of proper breaking, progressing from beginning external breaking to advanced internal breaking (external breaking - all the bricks are broken; internal breaking - only the brick selected breaks.); learning techniques that show how the Iron Palm is applied in self-defense situations; learning where the strikes are to be applied for maximum effect (such as Tien Hsueh). I have just finished a new series of books that offers the most complete study of this subject to the public, so, if you are interested, you can go to www.ultimateironpalm.com and see more about these. For the Iron Palm liniment, you can go to www.briangray.com .
Master Brian Gray
I notice that there are some self-taught Iron Palm "wannabe masters" running around out there telling people to thrust their hands into lead and copper. Any person with a first-grade education knows that this will poison the practitioner and can lead to his death. Legitimate Iron Palm, as taught throughout ancient China, dealt with thrusting the hands into mixtures over a three-year period to condition the hands, and these mixtures began with dried peas or beans, moved on to pea gravel, and finished with iron pellets. In an effort to seem not to be copying my books and magazine articles on the subject, these frauds have decided to tell people to use other elements. I guess they think that being unique makes them either legitimate or just better, not sure, but when they tell people to use lead or copper pellets to train in, they are putting the lives of innocent people in danger. I could name these people, but I would rather people just be aware of the practice. It isn't hard to prove that these guys are frauds, since they have stated this dangerous practice in print on numerous websites. A lot of what they have written cannot be erased, so you will have no trouble finding their words. So, just look for anyone who claims to be an Iron Palm expert, or master, and if he is telling you that you should thrust your hands repeatedly into lead or copper pellets, you have all the information you need to know who to avoid. Stay informed. If you are going to get into this art, then you may want to read my books (available at www.ultimateironpalm.com). I have put everything there is to know about this art in those four books, "Iron Palm Fundamentals," "Advanced Iron Palm," "Applied Iron Palm" and "Iron Palm Form," and I document everything, so that you can see what the effects of proper training are. There are positive effects from training with the legitimate Iron Palm, and there are effects that can lead to permanent damage, even death, if a person trains with some of the fraudulent methods that are being offered by a host of frauds who hide behind fake lineage charts. Also, if you are looking for a good Iron Palm liniment, we do offer a very effective one at www.briangray.com. Beside the fact that this liniment has been sold around the world for many decades now with great and very positive feedback from those who use it, I think one of the best compliments I have been paid was when a major Chinese herbalist in Chinatown, New York, asked very politely if he could copy my recipe to use for his patients. Of course, I shared it with him, as I have always done for those who wish to make their own. In fact, in my book "Advanced Iron Palm," I give people the herbal recipe so they can make it at home.
I just hope I can help get the word out there that there are some Iron Palm frauds telling people to condition using lead and copper, which will ultimately kill the practitioner. Thanks for sharing this information with others.
Folsoml
I toughen my hands by thrusting them only into bags of Doritos.

EDIT: Or sometimes peanut M&M's
Master Brian Gray
QUOTE(Folsoml @ Sep 16 2008, 06:55 PM) *
I toughen my hands by thrusting them only into bags of Doritos.

EDIT: Or sometimes peanut M&M's

Well, except for the calories you might absorb, I guess you're okay. One question, though. After your session thrusting your hands into the Doritos, do you rub them with Paprika?

Judoturtle
QUOTE(Master Brian Gray @ Sep 17 2008, 05:06 AM) *
Well, except for the calories you might absorb, I guess you're okay. One question, though. After your session thrusting your hands into the Doritos, do you rub them with Paprika?


I am getting hungry.
COJudoka
QUOTE(Folsoml @ Sep 16 2008, 12:55 PM) *
I toughen my hands by thrusting them only into bags of Doritos.

EDIT: Or sometimes peanut M&M's


There is no tougher training, I am in awe......
Master Brian Gray
QUOTE(COJudoka @ Sep 16 2008, 07:39 PM) *
There is no tougher training, I am in awe......

If only the Iron Palm were so simple...like maybe a bag of iron chips. I should have asked earlier, though, with that thrusting one's hands into bags of Doritos...do we leave the chips in the bag?
Folsoml
QUOTE(Master Brian Gray @ Sep 16 2008, 03:52 PM) *
with that thrusting one's hands into bags of Doritos...do we leave the chips in the bag?



We remove them one handful at a time.
Master Brian Gray
QUOTE(Folsoml @ Sep 16 2008, 08:17 PM) *
We remove them one handful at a time.

Iron Palm training was never that fun...M&Ms...Doritos...hmmmm...I think I am going to switch to the Doritos method. Probably call it Do Ri To Fu...
Judoforlife
Im with Folsom, I prefer to just slam my opponent into the ground and save my hands for grabbing the bag of chips! wink.gif
waylander
My feeling is; I would like to spend less time conditioning an iron palm and more time learning how to fight.
Master Brian Gray
QUOTE(Judoforlife @ Sep 16 2008, 10:14 PM) *
Im with Folsom, I prefer to just slam my opponent into the ground and save my hands for grabbing the bag of chips! wink.gif

Just make sure you grab the chips before you do the slamming...I think that was an Iron Palm proverb...
smudgeoka
I knew I had those striking arts wrong. I thought the palm bit was all safe and tucked up in an Iron fist. I'm such a one art person. I know nothing of other arts. Incidentally, anything there for iron armpits, gave my uke a bad case of Gi rash tonight. And my Yama Arashi still blows.
NBK
I want Iron Sole, as in sole of foot. Good for sweeping Lurch. Or just hacking at his shin, which given my normal timing, is the usual result.

With Iron Palm, I'd be concerned that I might never play the concert piano again....
HALFORD JONES
There is no danger that any of you here will suffer from any ill effects by studying and practicing the various methods of the iron palm or any similar adjuncts. Yes, it is more important that you all save your hands for violin and piano practice if not brain surgery! Please be sure to insure you hands at Lloyd's of London, for at least a million bucks or pounds or Euros!
phoenixdarshan
hi martial arts fellows,

very intersting insights in this forum/thread.
Dos any one knwo where i coul dget the lead/copper/iron pebbles for bean bags, I am desperate. I coul dnot import them from China due to weight restrictions, i need about 8-10kg.
Any hint or clue would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance
phoenix
HALFORD JONES
QUOTE(phoenixdarshan @ Nov 17 2008, 04:41 PM) *
hi martial arts fellows,very intersting insights in this forum/thread.Dos any one knwo where i coul dget the lead/copper/iron pebbles for bean bags, I am desperate. I coul dnot import them from China due to weight restrictions, i need about 8-10kg.Any hint or clue would be appreciated.Thanks in advancephoenix
try steel ball bearings and also use some stones. I will not go into the full descriptions of all this as I do not have time right now.I just read Brian Grey's posts and while lead was used for its rather soft qualities it can be poisonous as can arsenic(arsenic of lead was a commont pesticide years ago). The lead pellets were placed in thick sacks and struck and while some may have attempted spear hand thrusts,etc. I think that limestone (crushed) and other stones would work better and were cheaper and more easily obtained. However, sand bags and pea/bean/rice/corn bags and containers of such have been used by many and are usually starters for many. There are other materials, but no matter, as many point out, how tough or conditioned your entire hand may well be, the applications of such are another matter. I have mentioned some thing about the iron hand in the topic of other martial arts under yao yan,since Master Nap Fernandez has utilized I believe training methods from a person he knows and of whom I know that has a very unique 'iron hand'. As you all probably know there are other areas of the body that have or can have iron conditions made so by certain training methods most people prefer not to undertake. You can also do weight-lifting with the testicles if you want but that is another matter.
Hyperborean
I've never quite understood the concept of all of this 'hand conditioning'. Mind you, I've never understood the concept of breaking boards, water-melons or bricks either. I mean, tactically, it makes no sense. It's like assaulting a fortress, and purchasing cannons to breach the walls, when there is a perfectly weak spot in the gate that, when collapsed with some simple ramming will mean victory.

Having punched people in the solar plexus in training very lightly, and seen them make the "Okay, thanks for showing me, but don't do that again"-face and knowing what would happen if I were to punch someone in the neck, the nose or a variety of other weak spots, why would I train my fists so I can smash through a thick wooden board?

It seems to me a far better idea to invest that time and effort you would spend punching innocent bags rather on technique and understanding the human body sufficiently to know its weaknesses.

HALFORD JONES
Yes, it is often difficult to explain all this hand conditioning and body conditioning,etc. to those not versed in it or who do not know the historical basis for all this, which I do not have time to discuss except to say that in ancient times, body armor composed of wood, bones, bamboo,etc. was worn and smashing through it when unarmed to hit vulnerable spots on the body protected is often offered as an explanation of all this but it is not a very satisfactory one. Another explanation has to do with Chinese and Asian medicine and theory, along with other esoteric things,etc. that seem to form the basis for some types of practice along these lines. Unfortunately, most karate practitioners and Tae Kwon Do fighters seldom use liniments and herbs to supplement and improve the hands,therefore making such things merely a 'beating of the hands' although proper makiwara use as well as wooden dummy training can give some fair to good results for such conditioning of the hands,primarily though other parts, like elbows and feet can be employed. Knowing how to move, how to form proper hand formations for striking,etc. and the use of body structure and other factors, some with tension and some without,etc. can actually do some damage to attackers if you know how,etc. Have to dash to other topics now.
Osmo
QUOTE(Master Brian Gray @ Aug 30 2008, 05:37 PM) *
...One guy has his students thrusting their hands into lead and copper pellets, which any person familiar with basic science knows will ultimately lead to poisoning and death...


I wonder how much these metals are absorbed through skin?
Hyperborean
QUOTE(HALFORD JONES @ Nov 20 2008, 10:00 PM) *
Yes, it is often difficult to explain all this hand conditioning and body conditioning,etc. to those not versed in it


Strange. I can't think of a single exercise I do in judo the use of which I could not explain to a layman. They might have difficulty understanding specifically how it improves a throw, but they would understand the basic intention here. Why don't you explain the basic idea behind it? Does one's punches become harder? Can one punch through wood? Why is all of this necessary?

Mind you, the exercises I recommend don't have people hurting themselves. I hope you provide an explanation to the people you recommend this auto-mutilation.

QUOTE
or who do not know the historical basis for all this, which I do not have time to discuss except to say that in ancient times, body armor composed of wood, bones, bamboo,etc. was worn and smashing through it when unarmed to hit vulnerable spots on the body protected is often offered as an explanation of all this but it is not a very satisfactory one.


I'm perfectly willing to concede in the context of this discussion that there was a historical use for this to penetrate armour. I'm sure there was a historical use for samurai armour. There is none today (I'm not arguing against ceremonial use here, just that it won't offer much protection these days).

QUOTE
Another explanation has to do with Chinese and Asian medicine and theory, along with other esoteric things,etc. that seem to form the basis for some types of practice along these lines.


Pray tell: How does beating your hands in a bag of marbles improve your health? As for 'esoteric things', I'm not impressed.

QUOTE
Unfortunately, most karate practitioners and Tae Kwon Do fighters seldom use liniments and herbs to supplement and improve the hands,therefore making such things merely a 'beating of the hands' although proper makiwara use as well as wooden dummy training can give some fair to good results for such conditioning of the hands,primarily though other parts, like elbows and feet can be employed. Knowing how to move, how to form proper hand formations for striking,etc. and the use of body structure and other factors, some with tension and some without,etc. can actually do some damage to attackers if you know how,etc. Have to dash to other topics now.


What does any of this have to do with the efficacy of training one's hand in the manner outlined? You haven't outlined a single argument, you haven't even begun to address my question, only implying that there are different explanations. What explanations?

QUOTE
I wonder how much these metals are absorbed through skin?


Presumably, the friction turns the lead balls into a liquid that is absorbed through the pores. Or perhaps the chi is corrupted by these unnatural metals. dry.gif
HALFORD JONES
Quick response. Hitting materials like wood,etc. and the human body are actually not quite the same thing. The boards and bricks,etc. seldom respond dynamically but statically while the human body reactes to pain,etc. and not just simple reactions of a physics type experiment, although we can't exclude physical laws,etc. The conditioned hand can do much damage in self-defense or attack if used with some understanding of what to do,etc. but also with a bit of luck if you don't. Actually, try hitting someone with a good deal of modern day armour on,such as, heavy winter jackets, football pads, cops with their brands of armor,etc. You may then understand this a bit more. A lot of puncing and kicking, by the way, was done against persons in light clothing and and bare chests or tee shirts,etc. I think you have to examine all the possibilities that I have not as yet mentioned and don't have time to do.
HALFORD JONES
I want to mention, however, which I did not do yesterday, that judo techniques against 'armored' persons,especially to unbalance opponents and attackers, are important and not to be underestimated and that relying on being able to 'penetrate' such by hitting or kicking methods entirely will not enable you to overcome such especially against very determined killers,etc. So learn you judo throws and grapples as well.
Hyperborean
QUOTE(HALFORD JONES @ Nov 21 2008, 11:15 PM) *
Quick response. Hitting materials like wood,etc. and the human body are actually not quite the same thing. The boards and bricks,etc. seldom respond dynamically but statically while the human body reactes to pain,etc. and not just simple reactions of a physics type experiment, although we can't exclude physical laws,etc.


I don't think I implied that they did. If anything, I implied that hitting wood is quite unlike hitting the human body.


QUOTE
The conditioned hand can do much damage in self-defense or attack if used with some understanding of what to do,etc. but also with a bit of luck if you don't. Actually, try hitting someone with a good deal of modern day armour on,such as, heavy winter jackets, football pads, cops with their brands of armor,etc. You may then understand this a bit more. A lot of puncing and kicking, by the way, was done against persons in light clothing and and bare chests or tee shirts,etc. I think you have to examine all the possibilities that I have not as yet mentioned and don't have time to do.


I think an unconditioned hand can do much damage in self-defence or attack as well. I have not conditioned my hands, and I'm quite sure that I can hit you hard and quick enough to incapacitate you. Why? Because I know where to hit.


QUOTE(HALFORD JONES @ Nov 22 2008, 05:06 PM) *
I want to mention, however, which I did not do yesterday, that judo techniques against 'armored' persons,especially to unbalance opponents and attackers, are important and not to be underestimated and that relying on being able to 'penetrate' such by hitting or kicking methods entirely will not enable you to overcome such especially against very determined killers,etc. So learn you judo throws and grapples as well.


I doubt a conditioned fist can penetrate ceramic plates, or any armour generally used on the street. Really, I can't think of any condition in which it might be helpful, unless challenged at gunpoint and pain of death to breaking a board with one's hands.
HALFORD JONES
QUOTE(Hyperborean @ Nov 22 2008, 04:22 PM) *
I don't think I implied that they did. If anything, I implied that hitting wood is quite unlike hitting the human body.
I think an unconditioned hand can do much damage in self-defence or attack as well. I have not conditioned my hands, and I'm quite sure that I can hit you hard and quick enough to incapacitate you. Why? Because I know where to hit.
I doubt a conditioned fist can penetrate ceramic plates, or any armour generally used on the street. Really, I can't think of any condition in which it might be helpful, unless challenged at gunpoint and pain of death to breaking a board with one's hands.

The iron plam or iron hand or iron fist, whatever, is not, as some have pointed out, 'a health improvement exercise' by any stretch of the imagination. Along with the lead pellet,ball,etc. materials another source of 'poisonous' materials are the various 'liniments' used which can be strong, toxic,etc. especially if you should taste this 'wine' and there is,also, the notion of the 'poison hand' which goes along with this notion. I will not say more but let you all do your homework. As for street armour, what I meant to say is that the untrained hand can do damage to others, of course, and also end up with damage to itself,even if you know the targets. Also, heavy clothing, jackets, mackinaws,etc. can soften whatever body blows you deliver.
Mike Sigman
QUOTE(HALFORD JONES @ Nov 24 2008, 11:22 AM) *
The iron plam or iron hand or iron fist, whatever, is not, as some have pointed out, 'a health improvement exercise' by any stretch of the imagination. Along with the lead pellet,ball,etc. materials another source of 'poisonous' materials are the various 'liniments' used which can be strong, toxic,etc. especially if you should taste this 'wine' and there is,also, the notion of the 'poison hand' which goes along with this notion. I will not say more but let you all do your homework. As for street armour, what I meant to say is that the untrained hand can do damage to others, of course, and also end up with damage to itself,even if you know the targets. Also, heavy clothing, jackets, mackinaws,etc. can soften whatever body blows you deliver.
Of course, the kind of iron palm with hitting rocks, pellets, etc., is considered the "hard" kind of training. The "soft" kind doesn't do it that way. However, for what the original poster was talking about, I expect that if he'd just throw a 5-pound bag of small ball-bearings up with one hand, catch it with the other, etc., etc., he'd accomplish what he wants. That and conditioning the hands with Tuf-foot would probably do a lot for his hands.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Saint Germain
QUOTE(Master Brian Gray @ Aug 30 2008, 03:37 PM) *
One guy has his students thrusting their hands into lead and copper pellets, which any person familiar with basic science knows will ultimately lead to poisoning and death. Still, another guy has his students slapping coconuts, claiming that since coconuts are round, they resemble the human head. While this may seem reasonable to an unlearned lay person, the truth is that the Chinese who invented this system never trained with coconuts. The guy who came up with this fraudulence was declared mentally insane by the state of California, but his damage is still making the rounds. If you want to know my credentials, and thus, my right to say that what I am telling you is correct, you can also visit www.briangray.com. I am currently featured in this month's issue of Inside Kung Fu magazine. I head the Iron Palm International Organization, and in 2003, Inside Kung Fu magazine named me as one of the 30 Most Influential Masters of the Past 30 Years, along with Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Jet Li. While I am humbled and flattered to receive this accolade, I only list it here so that you know I am a serious and legitimate representative of the art of the Chinese Iron Palm, and that I am only too happy to help share this knowledge with the public so that the genuine material gets into the hands of those seeking the information. There is just too much dangerous fraudulence out there for me to remain uninvolved. Hope this has been of some help to you, and good luck with your studies in the wonderful art of Judo.


I don't know who in God's name came up with use of led and copper.. that's just rediculous.. but some legitimate schools have been known to use coconuts to toughen their knuckles and elbows. You can see a good example of this on the Pradal Surrey and Bokator episode of human weapon. However, keep in mind that a lot of those fighters are basically crippled by they time they hit 25 because of some of the stuff they do to themselves.
Saint Germain
QUOTE(Mike Sigman @ Nov 29 2008, 08:13 PM) *
Of course, the kind of iron palm with hitting rocks, pellets, etc., is considered the "hard" kind of training. The "soft" kind doesn't do it that way. However, for what the original poster was talking about, I expect that if he'd just throw a 5-pound bag of small ball-bearings up with one hand, catch it with the other, etc., etc., he'd accomplish what he wants. That and conditioning the hands with Tuf-foot would probably do a lot for his hands.

FWIW

Mike Sigman


I fortunately just moved to a rather warm region of the world several months ago. I also reciently tried out the traditional bananna tree as a practice dummy. It definitely hurts, especially shin kicks, but it works unbelievably well. But, it's also a soft target that won't cut your hands up or break any bones. You don't have to go around punching bricks to condition your hands. In fact, very often a soft target like a bag with a bit of resistance, weight and flexibility will provide a better effect without doing any long-term damage to your hands and legs.
HALFORD JONES
QUOTE(Saint Germain @ Jan 3 2009, 02:34 AM) *
I fortunately just moved to a rather warm region of the world several months ago. I also reciently tried out the traditional bananna tree as a practice dummy. It definitely hurts, especially shin kicks, but it works unbelievably well. But, it's also a soft target that won't cut your hands up or break any bones. You don't have to go around punching bricks to condition your hands. In fact, very often a soft target like a bag with a bit of resistance, weight and flexibility will provide a better effect without doing any long-term damage to your hands and legs.
Having lived in the tropics, the Philippines for some years, the use of coconuts and banana(plants-not trees, they are related to the abaca also) is familiar to me. Breaking of coconuts will not cripple the hands if you know what you are doing except for the very hard shelled ones. Doing a break with the husk on is another matter. In the west, most of the coconuts have the husk removed. I could say a lot more on all this, and as for banana there are far more varieties available than in the modern supermarkets. In the recent ISKF James McNeil has an article on the iron palm,etc. He is another 'expert' like Brian Grey, but his methods involve, at least in the article, the use of wrist and grip strengthening, in the usual weight/BB strength training modes,if you know what I mean. The use of the wrist roller for example. Lead was much easier to obtain in China than iron or steel and you have to realize also that mercury,another poisonous substance, was often used in iron-hit wines and so forth to bathe the hands in,if you know what I mean. You have to read a bit of alchemical manuscripts, both Easter and Western to see some of this sort of thing. Hitting a person with a hand not used to hitting things, such as, a heavy bag or even a speed bag or the simple makiwara,all done in the proper manner, of course, can result in injury and cuts and bruises,etc. The idea for anything,involving training or conditioning, is to do it slowly, carefully, attentively, and progressively and for a substantial period of time, trying all the while to not injure yourself to fulfill fantasies about such things,as goodness knows, there are so many examples of persons doing this, as they watch mindless movies and video games,etc. The old tough methods of WWII of hitting hard planks with the edges of the hand(shuto,tegatana, etc) as well as those of the Japanese and the Koreans can still be done,of course. You can read Oyama's works and especially the last ones, with some degree of insight into all this,gleaned from his descriptions and advice,etc. The mindset necessary for any of this is that you will not achieve success in any of this without concentration and moderation and competent instruction. Only some people are attracted to this method of self-defense and martial art and I suspect it is those who, like myself, really prefer to do things on their own and not partake of tournament scenes and limelight and so forth. The hermit in his cave might well describe some of these people,who are viewed, no doubt, as cranks and eccentrics at best.
QUOTE(HALFORD JONES @ Jan 6 2009, 06:34 PM) *
Having lived in the tropics, the Philippines for some years, the use of coconuts and banana(plants-not trees, they are related to the abaca also) is familiar to me. Breaking of coconuts will not cripple the hands if you know what you are doing except for the very hard shelled ones. Doing a break with the husk on is another matter. In the west, most of the coconuts have the husk removed. I could say a lot more on all this, and as for banana there are far more varieties available than in the modern supermarkets. In the recent ISKF James McNeil has an article on the iron palm,etc. He is another 'expert' like Brian Grey, but his methods involve, at least in the article, the use of wrist and grip strengthening, in the usual weight/BB strength training modes,if you know what I mean. The use of the wrist roller for example. Lead was much easier to obtain in China than iron or steel and you have to realize also that mercury,another poisonous substance, was often used in iron-hit wines and so forth to bathe the hands in,if you know what I mean. You have to read a bit of alchemical manuscripts, both Easter and Western to see some of this sort of thing. Hitting a person with a hand not used to hitting things, such as, a heavy bag or even a speed bag or the simple makiwara,all done in the proper manner, of course, can result in injury and cuts and bruises,etc. The idea for anything,involving training or conditioning, is to do it slowly, carefully, attentively, and progressively and for a substantial period of time, trying all the while to not injure yourself to fulfill fantasies about such things,as goodness knows, there are so many examples of persons doing this, as they watch mindless movies and video games,etc. The old tough methods of WWII of hitting hard planks with the edges of the hand(shuto,tegatana, etc) as well as those of the Japanese and the Koreans can still be done,of course. You can read Oyama's works and especially the last ones, with some degree of insight into all this,gleaned from his descriptions and advice,etc. The mindset necessary for any of this is that you will not achieve success in any of this without concentration and moderation and competent instruction. Only some people are attracted to this method of self-defense and martial art and I suspect it is those who, like myself, really prefer to do things on their own and not partake of tournament scenes and limelight and so forth. The hermit in his cave might well describe some of these people,who are viewed, no doubt, as cranks and eccentrics at best.
Although we call them coconut 'trees' they are actually plants. Bamboo, which we also tend to call,'trees' are technically grasses. Bamboo is related to rattan but there significant differences.
QUOTE(HALFORD JONES @ Jan 6 2009, 06:36 PM) *
Having lived in the tropics, the Philippines for some years, the use of coconuts and banana(plants-not trees, they are related to the abaca also) is familiar to me. Breaking of coconuts will not cripple the hands if you know what you are doing except for the very hard shelled ones. Doing a break with the husk on is another matter. In the west, most of the coconuts have the husk removed. I could say a lot more on all this, and as for banana there are far more varieties available than in the modern supermarkets. In the recent ISKF James McNeil has an article on the iron palm,etc. He is another 'expert' like Brian Grey, but his methods involve, at least in the article, the use of wrist and grip strengthening, in the usual weight/BB strength training modes,if you know what I mean. The use of the wrist roller for example. Lead was much easier to obtain in China than iron or steel and you have to realize also that mercury,another poisonous substance, was often used in iron-hit wines and so forth to bathe the hands in,if you know what I mean. You have to read a bit of alchemical manuscripts, both Easter and Western to see some of this sort of thing. Hitting a person with a hand not used to hitting things, such as, a heavy bag or even a speed bag or the simple makiwara,all done in the proper manner, of course, can result in injury and cuts and bruises,etc. The idea for anything,involving training or conditioning, is to do it slowly, carefully, attentively, and progressively and for a substantial period of time, trying all the while to not injure yourself to fulfill fantasies about such things,as goodness knows, there are so many examples of persons doing this, as they watch mindless movies and video games,etc. The old tough methods of WWII of hitting hard planks with the edges of the hand(shuto,tegatana, etc) as well as those of the Japanese and the Koreans can still be done,of course. You can read Oyama's works and especially the last ones, with some degree of insight into all this,gleaned from his descriptions and advice,etc. The mindset necessary for any of this is that you will not achieve success in any of this without concentration and moderation and competent instruction. Only some people are attracted to this method of self-defense and martial art and I suspect it is those who, like myself, really prefer to do things on their own and not partake of tournament scenes and limelight and so forth. The hermit in his cave might well describe some of these people,who are viewed, no doubt, as cranks and eccentrics at best.Although we call them coconut 'trees' they are actually plants. Bamboo, which we also tend to call,'trees' are technically grasses. Bamboo is related to rattan but there significant differences.
For St. Germaine, since he has moved to a warm country where bananas grow, I hope that he will be able to see the banana blossom! This a usually a purple blossom that grows atop the bunch of bananas and prized as a food, which,when sauteed, is most tasty. Also, bananas grow 'upright' and not downwards and they do have seeds in them! But few of us notice this.
LMNO
I have no real opinion on whether or not iron palm technique will help you but I will provide you a link to a documentary series called ¨human weapon¨ The documentary series is about a couple of guys who travel to Japan and explore different martial arts and the training involved. In this particular episode they are exploring karate and the sensei shows them a couple of hand strengthening techniques such as thrusting your hand fingertips first in to a bushel of bamboo as well as striking rocks etc. Like I said I am not recommending this nor do I know if it is what you are looking for but never the less it is interesting anyways. At the end of each episode one of the guys tries to fight a practitioner of the particular style of martial arts they are exploring.

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=human...emb=0&aq=f#

There are many other episodes where they explore judo, ninjitsu, sambo etc. all are very interesting if you have never seen them.
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