Just curious if it's all fluff or just mostly?

Couldn't help but think "McDojo" when watching one of the classes the other day.

Yes, I have. Underestimating aikidô is ricidulous. A poor aikidôka is as good or as poor as a poor jûdôka, whereas an aikidô expert is as dangerous as any expert in any martial art. For more detailed accounts on meetings aikidô/jûdô, I refer you to Kôichi Tôhei who destroyed a number of jûdôka including Kimura's deshi of whom he broke both of his arms during randori.

Obviously, Shioda Gôzô was not a random aikidôka, but your question was about aikidô, and not about what an average or poor student of aikidô knows or is able to. If you argue that you also saw the sensei, that doesn't make any difference as sensei are often pupils just like their pupils but in a further stage. If you want to appreciate the art, then you got to watch or feel someone who really masters the art, and that, Shioda Gôzô certainly did.

Take this with a grain of salt.. Obviously as CK said it matters more about the practitioner then the art itself. However, I've been browsing youtube a lot lately, and every single video I have seen of aikido looks absolutely ridiculous. I try not to be biased, but when I see them doing things, it just looks like someone doing flips for a guy, who looks more like hes using his actions as signals for when the guy is supposed to flip... Then there are all the videos "Aikido vs Jiu Jitsu", "Aikido versus karate", "Aikido versus insert art here" they're incredibely stupid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPx7IAlRj_A

I rest my case.

Delucia's combat aikido...looks...oddly familiar to many judoka?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

Oh look. A blue gi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkZ82DOcEfc

Actually you are right, most of the "randori" on youtube is ridiculous and the actions of the nage do have the intentions of signaling to the uke what the throw is going to be, but then again what you see in most youtube clips (i would say all of them but actually i havent seen them all) isnt randori (free technique or sparring) they are basicly demos of aikido principles, such as tai sabaki, irimi, tenkan and some of the most baisc throws, so i really doubt that you will see any kind of "real" randori on youtube for several reason, we could argue that the techniques, if aplied correctly or in a live environemet are really dangerous but most will frown to that, but what i can say for sure is that at least in the aikido form i study randori isnt done until you have mastered all forms of ukemi and a wide variety of throws and imobilizations... so before 2nd dan you wont see aikido randori... the clips you mentioned of "aikido vs....." are indeed stupid for the most part... if you are looking for randori. If you are looking for learning tools and already know the aikido basis they can come in pretty handy.

Doso

p.s. - guys in the us have a chance of looking up at least 3 people withb roots in iwama that can give them a real good perspective on what randori is in aikido, master Isoyama, hitohiro Sayto and the croud pleasing Jason Delucia.

looks a lot like two novices in Judo. Maybe the aikidoka should just stick to aikido?

Also in Yoseikan we do sometimes a little aikirandori, we are allowed to use judotechniques there. I try to do that as little as possible. At a certain point I lost track and fell back to a judo and threw a hipthrow, then after this all my other randori-mates started doing judothrows as well :D I think this shows that judo throws are much easier to learn than good aikido technique. But this doesnt mean that they are less effective, they just work in a different way (and for me its harder to get a good feeling for it).

It looks to be a playacting .
I have a friend who trains in Aïkido yet whereas I stopped it . He is a blackbelt and a really good technician .
The most difficult is not to throw him but to catch him !!!

Which is a good quality in self defense!

Please provide us with a source where we can view these destructions. At the very least please describe these encounters.

Aikido:
"Here grab my wrist/arm"
"Please let me grab your wrist/arm"
"Attack me in a bumrush with your head up and arms down so I can head-tilt you"
"Please hit me with a wide-swinging overhand clout to the head"
"Grab my bokken and hold on while I tthrow you around like an idiot"
"Please attack me in an orderly fashion when attempting to mass attack me. PLEASE BE PREPARED TO WAIT YOUR TURN!"
"Watch me do stupid tricks like the unbendable arm, but please do not disrupt my ki by poking, slapping, punching, kicking, nipple twisting, eyeball licking, or god-forbid striking or stroking me in the private parts. In fact, please don't do anything other than trying to bend my arm or my stupid pet trick won't work"

LMAO!



Check out the Delucia clip on youtube His Judo really sucks, his pathetic executions of throws was pathetic. I've got BJJ bluebelts that can do better osoto garis, soto makikomi, yokowakare and sumi gaeshis. LOL!

The Blue gi wearing "Real Aikido France" guy was more impressive (but typical aikido) than Delucia.




Aikido as a fighting style sucks, but like many other styles it does have techniques that can be incorporated into fighting.

There you go, Sir:

[attachmentid=3130][attachmentid=3131][attachmentid=3132]

The "here grab my wrist/arm & please let me grab your wrist/arm" is a way of sequential and safe training just like every martial art before MMA was created or modern protection materials existed, had to come up with safe ways to train. The kata in judo, the uchi-komi in judo all were partly created because of that. Neither the movements in aikidô you are referring to, nor sequential movements in jûdô are shinken shôbu, but solely a way of practising. The problem you likely perceive may be that some adepts of either discipline never transcend the pure 'practising'.

There are ways for doing the opposite, we used go out in the sailor's quarters in Marseille if we wanted to see if techniques really worked. Care to join us ?

P.S.: Sorry, I mixed the name of Kôichi Tôhei with that of Shioda Gôzô, my mistake. I am mixing up most names this week.

yoseikan aikido

first some explaining of basics by Mochizuki sensei. Then some aikirandori, and finally some sutemi waza (inherent of yoseikan aikido)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf39s46Qxcg

*shrugs*

I thought they looked pretty darn good, m'self.

I think Delucia is Yoseikan, so that explains the 'rough-housing'.

I did not think that was very good.

deLucia does have an impressing record especially in Pancrase. How odd is that ;)
I dont know what style aikido he did, I just found he studied Aikido hehe.

Yes , if your opponent does not attack you from the back ... And if you have enough place to move .

I would take Aikido if I could study under Segal. I watched a clip of what he makes his students do for his shodan test. Basically three guys just charge at you at once. People bust on Segal, but the consensus seems to be that he is good at his art, whether or not his connections influenced his rank or not.

Yeah, I've got that DVD ("Path Beyond Thought"). Interesting to watch

That is it!
I see this point as an effective way to deal with multiple oponents. It is hard to catch good Aikidoka. They can scape from multiple attackers, and run away. It is very usefull in self defense (unless someone shoot them while they are trying to scape )

CK hit the nail on the head with his comment about the bad name of Aikido coming from those who never transcend practice.

I haven't (and while I'm at work am unable to) seen the videos you reference, but unlike Judo where the throws work with the body's joints to colapse them into a pile, in Aikido you work against the joints. For that reason, it is important to protect yourself from a correct throw ( a correct throw will give you opening to do little other than ukemi). It is important that you don't just give in to an incorrect throw if you are training in Aikido unless it is dangerous. If you just let them have a bad technique, then you ruin your partner as both uki and tori. He will have useless techniques and he will ruin yours by learning to give in if you have useless technique.

This is so piss poor it is almost funny again. The video should be titled "Judo throws- how not to do them...." . I had to stop after the Soto Makikomi attempt at 1.30 of the first video, no point watching any longer and throwing up all over my keyboard.
Anyway, to call this activity randori is misleading: The Tomoe Nage (?) was the most obvious example, but these were staged techniques for the camera, which makes their crap execution even less forgivable than had the just failed because of the opponent´s resictance.

CB

It's funny, but I have had people grab my wrist in fights, not in the we stand there and reach out type of thing, but I have had people grab them (before doing Akiki Jujutsu)

Also many of the wrist grabs comes grom when SSamurai wore swords and knives, and people will grab you wrist to prevent you from deploying your weapon.

People also grab at your wrist and arms when you are tryinto stab them with a knife, and many of the AikijJujutsu wrist techniques work even better with a knife in your hand, it acts like a Yawara.

I lock up people wrist and use Nikyu, sanku and Kote giash all the time when knife training, but hardly ever when doing judo style randori or MMA style sparring.

Techniques are situational and enviromental.

Your last sentence seems to touch on something I read a while back by the son of Ueshiba. He was discussing the difference between Judo and Aikido, and one of the distinctions he made was that Judo (at the time) presumed grips, whereas a main focus of Aikido was the time and range before gripping. While Judo no longer assumes grips, and grip fighting is a main component of shiai and randori, it seems to me that there is some more overlap. Aikido, however, has somewhat different goals than winning a contest, and the ability to be elusive, or to avoid being grabbed or struck, would seem to a paramount skill.

Also, there are some techniques that just can't be safely done in Randori. Kano recognized this and sought to instruct the techniques through kata. Aikido uses the "going with" training principle, which seems to be what produces many of the demos that look unrealistic.

I remain somewhat skeptical about Aikido, but I do think that there are positive elements to it, especially for someone who is already trained in art that has "live" or randori-like training, such as Judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc. It is a very interesting way of thinking about moving and relating to an opponent.

It is interesting. You get ahold of it every once in a while in Judo too. Where you go to throw and it feels like your opponent weighs maybe a couple of pounds. Uki will feel like he fell over nothing at all. I think the end goal of both is to get there with your techniques. There is an old saying: "There are many paths up Mt. Fuji."

Oh look. A blue gi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkZ82DOcEfc
[/quote]


what is with the Moby soundtrack?

Anyone who's done randori with me has. They'll find my best techniques are UchiMata and Utsuri Goshi (i.e. Judo not Aikido)

Aikido has some great techniques but in the context of a one on one fight / randori they just aren't as reliable as those found in Judo (although I might be biased as I'm primarily a Judoka and only have a 1st Dan in Aikido).

Aikido's strengths are the seamless link between unarmed and weapons training and some of the multiple attack strategies (e.g. positioning your self at the extremities of the group so only one person can get their attack in)

Also I have found Nikkajo to be a strong technique and have tapped out BJJers with it in BJJ sparring. Nikkajo becomes less reliable when sweaty though as it can be difficult to get a good grip. However, many BJJers have never seen it so you can get time to dry their hands with you gi before applying it.

Ugggh.

I especially liked what happened at 40 seconds.

Can you please describe the technique you mentioned? i havent heard of it and i am sure that you being a 1st dan have more knowledge and a larger array of techniques... if you have a video of it idd also like that

Sorry edited to say ive seen what you meant... it was the name that got me confused, we call that nikkyo or second control, the ura is specially painfull, even before we get the guy down for the imobilization, good technique!

Domo

i've judo randori'd with an aikido blackbelt. he's 4th dan in aikido and 1st dan in judo. he hasn't trained judo in over twenty years, and this past year when i randori'd with him was the first time he had done judo randori since that time.

that said, he does include a lot of judo throws in his aikido, so his form has remained in some kind of practice.

anyway, he kicked my ass. i observed that he generates all his power from his hips, and his timing is just perfect.

it was randori with him that inspired me to think back on my aikido training and try to use larger/more integrated body movements to connect my hands (and ultimately my opponent) to my hips and use the momentum i generate.

it's a work in progress, but aikido gave me a framework, intellectually at least, to understand efficiency and power generation when i started judo.

none of my judo instructors talk about connection to your opponent, hip power, or blending with your opponent, or practice any exercises to cultivate any of those. i'm sure better judo instructors would, but in any case i hear a lot about it in aikido...

I have done randori with an experienced Aikidoka but I'm not sure if he is a black belt.

Despite the fact that he was significantly bigger and stronger than me the thing that really impressed me the most is that I didn't feel him. He had good posture, excellent body movement not only for his size but for anyone's size, and he gripped in such a way that I didn't feel him. With a lot of the other experienced judokas in my club I can feel there tenseness or strength and regardless of the direction I went he would kind of go with me. It was different to say the least.

It is really interesting .
I have noticed my aïkidoka-friend uses his hips too . But he never has studied Judo but Thaïboxing before .
So I conclude the good use of the hips came from Aikido .

One of my best mates Dad is an Aikido 6th dan (australian coach) judo 2nd Dan. He represented East germany in judo before turning to Aikido. A couple of years ago (when i was alot younger) i did do randori with him and he mixed his little wrist locks with throws rather well and smashed me. But he is an excpetion due to how experienced and how long he has been doing it for also he is about 30kgs heavier than me.
In saying that though i believe he could handle himself pretty easily against an opponent his size judo or not.

I've been in enough servicemember bar brawls thanks, fighting drunk sailors doesn't prove the effectiveness of a system/style. If it did my headbutt-jitsu is an unbeatable system of combat. Hell one little pineapple did a spinning back kick on a big-assed redneck and layed him out. We ended up fighting our way out of that bar and being chased by all manner of cops forcing us to E&E back to base that night. Does that prove the combat effectiveness of said kick?

Gozo Shioda was a tough old #%*/: by all accounts I've read, but it sorta the same thing I've said about the old-school karatekas, kempoists, kajukembo (as well as the judo/jujutsu) guys here in the 40's 50s and 60. They were tough, they had contact in training and they had brutal training methods that made them tough.

Ive mentioned it before, anybody read "Angry White Pajamas"? In one chapter there was a funeral service for Shioda (??) and all the high level guys from around the world came to Japan and got into a barbrawl. IIRC the author and his classmates asked what kind of techniques were used in the fight and they reply was they just brawled (Again, IIRC, but I'm pretty sure Aikido technique didn't save the day). The story also showed the harsh training regimen that most Aikidoka don't go through, so IMHO I'm more apt tho credit physical and mental toughness as the effective part of training rather than the technical aspects.

Like I stated previously, Aikido has things that can be used/incorporated into realistic, functional training. Over the last 22 years I can't recall specifically things things I picked up from Sensei Shishido, but I'm sure they're in my game somewhere, much the same for the few good tid-bits from Kay-rot-tee or some interesting things picked up from the wing chun practicing lesbian couple, but I'm certainly not of the opinion that Karate, Wing Chun or Aikido are effective fighitng systems. Many systems/style have tid-bits of technique, concepts, etc that can prove useful IMHO.



I saw nothing that would qualify for "Randori" in that clip.

There was ZERO randori in that clip.

here´s a clip from a marine wrist takedown practice (not randori) rio katadore kotegaeshi, this actually wouldnt work that way, but at least it shows that the military find some use for aikido techniques (and yes this isnt just and aikido technique, the lack of tai sabaki leads me to think its not aikido here).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBKrQ4vKkPg...ted&search=

ive been a part of an aiki randori with some brown belts of aikikai but the amount of atacks we were instructed to do was limited, we were to do shomenuchi, all the grabs we could and only above the belt techniques, and no kicks or leg takedowns, this in part was due to the lack of experience me and the other ukes had and also on the lack of experience the brown belt had with randori. Most of the exercize was kind of lame we ended up grabbing the brown from the back or "wayting" for him to do the throw... but later on the guy started to get frustrated he was getting caught and moved up a notch and i ended up doing my best ukemi not to get hurt, was particularly surprised when i was going for a shomenuchi and he did a seiza towards my legs, triping me, i was caught of guard and luckly my ukemi came out the way it should.
Ive never been involved in randori with a black belt but ive seen it wiht the same "rules" and it was pretty good, ive even seen a kick defense into a iriminage in randori and it was very surprising to me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI...ted&search=

this last clip is from the guy everybody loves to hate in martial arts, steven seagal, i really dont like him has a person but he has/had very good aikido skills and his students black belt test is something very interesting to watch the black belt test is the closest to aikido randori ive ever seen.. except that 3 on 1 is not very good for clean techniques.

domo

at the Seagal BB test

This might of worked better

http://www.flicklife.com/f357cb02c655671a4..._on_5_guys.html

"In that instant, he wants you to think this is life and death, these guys are gonna kill you, they get you you're dead!"

LMAO! What are they gonna kill you with, flailing and belly flopping on you?


"Once they hit, I mean you realize this is for real..."

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Supose that that means you have seen better... can you please show it to us? or at least me? im kind of intrigued.. one more thing.. is it that easy to hit a guy who is mor than a leg distance away and runnig away from you?

about the clip you posted... interesting enough he did pretty much what aikido teaches in multiple attacker situations... go to aside and when they are coming in, push them away, use your atemi to throat or face (mostly throat)... the guy actually reacted real well!

about your earlier description about goso shioda and the other aikidoa in the bar brawl... i think one of them was hiroshi isoyama... look him up... and what chicorei kano was talkiing about wasnt about just the drunken sailors has you put it.. it was about shioda breaking both arms of a judoka in a "fight"... its between "" because i really dont know the proper name for it

doso

Nope haven't seen better aikido, all I've seen of aikido is the same you've posted. If those were examples of randori well then

"one more thing.. is it that easy to hit a guy who is mor than a leg distance away and runnig away from you?"

Don't understand your question. The guy in the black sweater stuck and moved and kept hitting. Compare that to the Seagals BBs or even Seagal BS antics in the beginning of the clip. If it a question of striking v. aikido, well then is it easy to use aikido under the same conditions?

You speak of atemi, do you practice it much? Against a resisting opponent who is doing the same. Do you use helmets etc.? Does your practice involve uncoregraphed movements, etc? Basically I'm asking if you spar it, if not then your atemi is at best questionable.

"use your atemi to throat or face (mostly throat)..." Cool! what are your success %s in hitting the throat. Trying to hit my opponents is hard work, they keep hitting me back.


Re: Isoyama I found this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=77...h&plindex=2

While I enjoyed it more than other aikido clips, it's still bumbling, large motioned, fed attacks common in aikido. Figgen AWESOME uke though

CK invited me out to go test techniques out on sailors, I know how sailors are. Met many around the gulf coast, t-street in Pusan, etc. Don't think brawling with them constitutes a good test of whether a martial art is worthwhile.

As for Shioda and the "fight" I don't read Japanese. So why don't you tell me about this "fight." What were the rules, or lack of? Did they come to grips and dance around or was it more of an actual fight.......you know where people try like hell to beat the hell out of eachother with strikes, locks, chokes and maybe even a bat?

The guy in the black sweater movd to a side of the croud, hittd those who came close and he even throt jabbed a guy near the end of the clip, he also threw a guy that tried to hit him with a kick... funny stuff.. but still every aikido randori ive seen with more than one person is exactly like that, i doubt the guy does aikido, thats not what im saying but the principles are the same.

You seem to ignore the meaning of atemi, no its not dim mak, and no its not just a strike... it means strike at the vital points, normally after you have taken someones balance or if you want have a reaction from the other part you do a strike to a zone you know the other person wil react to (eyes, throat, balls, knees, solar plexus, etc) and then use their reaction, the sparring concept you mentioned is not communly used in aikido but there are schools that do it, mine doesnt, its iwama ryu.

the reason why we go for the throat is the same reason traditional styles of karate do it: a strike to the face or head can be avoided by a slight bend of the knees, a simple head dodge, that is very smal and energy efficient movements. so by aiming at the throat you eliminate the head tilts and the lowering of the knees in a favorable position, if he only tilts his head the fist wil still hit the wind pipe, if he bends is knees enough for the fist to pass over head he will be in an unfavorable position in what concerns balance, so high percentage in hitting the throat, maybe not, in obtaining a reaction favorable position for any good aikidoka, judoka, yes very high percentage... try it ... when you spar with someone go for the throat instead of the head.

you seem to centrate in a part of seagals clip... didnt you see anymore of it? Just that part where it was probably staged? didnt any of the black tests that werent reharsed feel like it could or would work to you?

the question about the striking on the ukes parts is simple... is it easy for someone to punch or kick a person running back... isnt the primordial idea in that type of situation to try and grab the person so we can hit them then?

I think that what CK said was that he went to sailors to test if the techniques worked, i said thats what he did... he didnt say shioda broke the arms of drunken sailors... he said he did it to a judo black belt in combat.

About the fight itself, im guessing it was the type of stuff guys my age ear about, more or less like the "gracie chalenge" where someone says, "my martial art is better than yours and lets fight to prove it" Ueshiba was invited to prove himself lots of times and so did his deshi, there are stories, and no i have no video evidence, of randori in away with another usehiba deshi against 4 judoka and he came up on top, there is this story about a challenge being made to shioda and the subsequent result, but you will have to ask CK to translate... the only kanji i know are the ones that spell aikido, sorry for that. if you look up the byo or stories about isoyama you will also read of his exploits has a marine instructor after the bomb, with wrestlers and boxers... but i have no clue on what it is that is mentioned on the pic that ck posted... i hope he could translate it.

If you liked isoyama, tough i think you didnt, you might want to check out also the son of sayto... hitohiro i think... he does a lot of strike defense maybe you will something you like there.

but actually if you have the time and the means, go to iwama in japan, try to study there for a week or so... i guess you will change you mind drasticly.

domo

You do not specify then according to what measurable criteria "the effectiveness of system/style" would need to measured. I am very curious about learning this.

Second, no effectiveness of any system or style exists independent of its practioner or athlete, and every physiological criterion that comes with it (age, endurance, explosive power, flexibility, force, power). Moroever, it is a known fact, that there is always a 'chance' and 'match harmony' factor, the latter meaning that a person, who always loses from me, may well always win from a person I always lose from. Strategic responses and effectiveness always represent imponderable factors in any fight. Advances in knowledge and strategic thinking obviously increase with age (assuming that one's commitment continues) and are therefore reverse related to physiological factors which decline with age. It is prudent to remember, Gôzô Shioda was not always old, just like he has not always been dead.

CK sorry to bother you with this, but is there a chance you can translate the japanese page you posted earliaer with the interview with Shioda? if you could i would apreciate it very much!

domo

Ummm thanks for clarifying "atemi" for me, I would have never have guessed we should actually aim our strikes. I suppose boxers just flail around hoping for a hit. Guess all those Muay Thai fighters where just flailing aimlessly at me too when they beat me up. I'll make a quick note of targets umm let's see, sloar plexus-check, eyeballs-check, throat-check, liver-check, temple-check,...... Thanks for the sparring advise, just to let you know I do occasionally aim for things like the point and side of the jaw, side of the neck, temple, liver, floating ribs, eyes (unsin racquetball goggles, etc), etc. In the process I'm usually get hit in the same by an opponent who takes offense to such.....this sparring thing is kinda funny that way.

While the BBtest attack may not have been rehearsed, they surely weren't fighting. The kids in Judo class doing sharks and fishes fight just as hard IMO.

As for the sailor and judoka issue. YES I KNOW. Two different points, CK invited me out to beat up sailors I declined. Shioda was a separate issue, which I addressed in a separate paragraph. As for the the "fight" or "combat" lets settle on contest whose rules, structure, etc have yet to be clarified.

And yes, I did like Isoyama, much more than the usual.

If I ever get to Iwama, I'd love to try it out. Hope you feel the same about a boxing gym, MMA gym or if you're in asia check out a Muay Thai gym.

I guess to address the first question.....does it work againt a skilled, resisting opponent intent on fighitng back. Let's use Judo as an example since we all love Judo or we wouldn't be on this site and everyone is familiar with it. In randori techniques can be tested to work against a resisting opponent. While randori or shiai are far from a real fight, they illustrate this concept of resistance. So does a system's/style's training method involve realistic movement, timing, resistance and techniques. Boxing is effective, Judo is effective, BJJ is effective, Wrestling is effective, but all are rather limited in ranges and application. Aikido I suppose could be effective under certain circumstances, depending on the training methods.

I completely agree with you on your second point.

I wholeheartedly agree with you sir, I have seen those same videos.

To address the rest of the forum, I think that if people learned Aikido from Japan as Steaven Seagal did then Aikido would not be given such a bad name. PS I just got my blue belt in judo

No problem, glad i could help! Usually, the boxers i know personally. they arent that many so the rest of the boxing comunity or at least the ones you pratice with can be diferent, aim for something yes but its not neither most of what you mentioned nor what i did, from what they tell me, no one aims for the throat for instance... and i dont mean to hit the throat... just to make the adversary protect it and react to it... nor the eyes, they do aim for the temple and the kidneys, liver.. solar plexus is something they rarelly even heard of and their main target, you guessed it! jaw or nose, same happens to kickboxers except they go for low kicks and for the clinch to do a little dirty boxing and im kind of curious... when you spar with protections on when you get it in the glasses , the cup, or whatever you use to protect the throat do you keep going or stop\ slow down?ive seen some "sparring" session of mma fighters before fights, weeks and months and tough some times i see the guy that actually is going to fight go full steam i cant say the same about the sparring partner... does this invalidate the all work ethick? Also did you ever train in that sort of situation.. 3 atackers rushing you and do you thin taht trying to punch or kick while running forward like that would be the best thing to do? i already asked you this, please reply! you gave a lot more emphasis on the part that seemed to refer to untrained individuals than to the part of Shioda breaking the judokas arms, i know, i know, there isnt any video evidence, i guess that means that a katana blade couldnt cut trough a man or that no one ever was hurt or injured from a shuriken... but there is reference to shioda breaking arms and of Abe randori with 4 judo bb and wining allover the web and from judokas and not only aikidokas... old or not there are at least 3 schools of aikido that train in the same manner. i missed a seminar with him this year... i hope next year i can attend Im not in asia but there are good muay thai places all over the place just see the dutch and the brasilian thai fighters, boxing im real curious about and bjj also... mma i think im more inclined of mixing what i know to what i will learn and devolop my blend... these days it seems mma has to be bjj, thai, boxing and wrestling... and i disagree, mma can also be judo, aikido, kyokushin and bjj or catch wrestling and tough it might take longer it will also make me wiser at least i think so.. domo Pratice it, try it and prove the repution or break trough the preconception of it, mmaers also have a reputation of being juice bags with dumb bells instead of brains, but we both know better dont we? doso

Aiki-Man,

MCMAP was started by Col George Bristol, who along with being a Judoka, studied with my Sensei and Sempai for a number of years, that MCMAP clip is an example of a basic Kote giash, off of a lapel grab/front hold/choke, and is not from Aikido, George took it from Icho Yama Ryu Aiki Jujutsu.

I'd say the Marine doing it was doing it at 4th or 5 th Kty level, and you can see how you do not make a big circle with it (like Aikido- and why many think Kote Giash does not work) but its a small circle and strait to the ground.

I don't understand why someone would think that works better than an Aikido style kote-gaeshi. I think the Aikido style kote-gaeshis I've been exposed to are far more effective than what I see in that clip.

I think the reason many believe that kote-gaeshi does not work is that they've never really seen it. An Aikido kote-gaeshi, in that case, I believe, would need sh'te to make distance, but Aikido has many responses to that style of grab that are more effective. It probably wouldn't make sense to make distance when there are better choices.

Aikido kote-gaeshi, as I've been exposed (which are also straight to the ground), need distance between partners, but the actual "working circle" is much, much smaller than the "working circle" of the type of kote-gaeshi in the video. In fact, it's probably more of a quarter circle of about three or four inches worth of movement.

Too bad there's so many back-seat drivers out there. (Those who don't know what an Aikido kote-gaeshi looks like but still carry an opinion.)


EDIT: To the OP, have you gained what you were looking for from the original question? If so, what did you conclude?

"when you spar with protections on when you get it in the glasses , the cup, or whatever you use to protect the throat do you keep going or stop\ slow down?"

HUH? Why would you stop sparring. Are you speaking about point sparring or singular attack drilling? In regards to the throat..... Now in Aikido whre everyone seems intent on standing extremely erect and open and leaving the throat open I'd be more than happy to punch a guy in the throat, skilled fighter's keep their chins down and hands up. When I work the striking dummy I work my strikes and and hit it, in sparring I get the jaw, point and sides as well as the side of the neck.

"ive seen some "sparring" session of mma fighters before fights, weeks and months and tough some times i see the guy that actually is going to fight go full steam i cant say the same about the sparring partner... does this invalidate the all work ethick? Also did you ever train in that sort of situation.. 3 atackers rushing you and do you thin taht trying to punch or kick while running forward like that would be the best thing to do? i already asked you this, please reply!"

Good observation! The person fighting can't afford injuries and he'll spar multiple training partners one after another for conditioning, etc. Even though the partner is not going full intensity, he is resisting and attacking with speed and realistic movent, distancing, etc. Try this, go to Thailand and visit a gym or camp and watch the Thais train, sparring is done with full resistance, but lowered intensity. Then watch them beat the hell out of the pads, again involving lots of movement as well as attacks by the padholder (feeder). That's a realistic method of training compare that to the the goofy BS seen in aikido

I still don't under stand your question. We occasionally work multiple attackers drill, which may involve two, three, or more. unlike the BS I saw on the clips we hit with power, clinched, throw/TD, got grounded and fought to get up, stabbed with a trainer, etc. We wear headgear, grappling gloves cup and mouthpiece, some people wear shin guards also. Getting offline and striking trying to prevent being taken down and putting one attacker between you an another are common tactics. Obtaining a Thai neck clinch and knee while maneuvering the opponent into or between another is one way we deal with the situation. If your asking if I "punch or kick while running forward" then I'll say I do whatever needs to get done at the time in a fluid situation. I may move toward a specific assailant to engage for whatever reason.

" you gave a lot more emphasis on the part that seemed to refer to untrained individuals than to the part of Shioda breaking the judokas arms, i know, i know, there isnt any video evidence, i guess that means that a katana blade couldnt cut trough a man or that no one ever was hurt or injured from a shuriken... but there is reference to shioda breaking arms and of Abe randori with 4 judo bb and wining allover the web and from judokas and not only aikidokas... old or not there are at least 3 schools of aikido that train in the same manner."

Whatever One point I'd like to emphasize in my previous post:

"Gozo Shioda was a tough old #%*/: by all accounts I've read, but it sorta the same thing I've said about the old-school karatekas, kempoists, kajukembo (as well as the judo/jujutsu) guys here in the 40's 50s and 60. They were tough, they had contact in training and they had brutal training methods that made them tough." So while thier style, techniques, training method, etc may not be the best, efficient, etc THEY WERE TOUGH! From training and from rougher lifestyle. If you're tougher. stronger, used to being hit, hurt, etc you can take a lot more and make something work. Would i want to fight Hee Il Cho in his prime? No, but I'll gladly beat up the 10y.o. Blackbelts, they're more my speed.


" Im not in asia but there are good muay thai places all over the place just see the dutch and the brasilian thai fighters, boxing im real curious about and bjj also... mma i think im more inclined of mixing what i know to what i will learn and devolop my blend... these days it seems mma has to be bjj, thai, boxing and wrestling... and i disagree, mma can also be judo, aikido, kyokushin and bjj or catch wrestling and tough it might take longer it will also make me wiser at least i think so.. domo"

Yes, there are GREAT MT places all over, You mentioned Japan so I thought you were living there. Boxing is great hand and footwork, BJJ will allow you to paly a little with you aikido and you'll catch many people the first few times............after that

MMA is whatever you can get to work under the pressure. BJJ, wrestling (Greco and freestyle) Thai are just the common elements because they're proven to work under the pressure and resistance. If you can make it work under pressure, more power to you.

Aikido came from dayto ryu aiki jiu jitsu so did the afore mentioned Icho Yama Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, the reason i said it wouldnt work like that isnt because there wasnt a very big circle nor the fact that tehy were doing it slow because they were begginers, there was no tai sabaki and no motion for the atemi... if the atacker ment to head but you there wouldnt have been any obstacle. further more kotegaeshi is done a little to the side and downwards he did it spinning back... it might be the ura version of the move but i dont think it was, other than that its pretty standard... a nikkio would be more efeccient tough in my mind at least.aikido has the same technique, the grab/choke is rio munadori and the throw is kotegaeshiQuick edit just to say that the control done after the downed oponnent wouldnt work well like that, he had to turn him over on his belly and then apply the arm control after the elbow was locked and the arm totally streched. domo Im definitly not going to enter a pissing competion with you, and i apreciate the sarcasm i like to use it a lot myself but if you take this forum has a mesure of anything, you can see that the detractors of aikido are either those that never done it in their lives or the ones that went in a class once and couldnt generate a kame hamea so they left for good, you seem to be one of the first, you watch youtube, you read bulshido and you dont need to go to the dojo... youtube and the rest of the web are good enough for you, so you are stuck in what others tell you is good, i wouldnt want to live my life like that but thats your choice alone, if your happy with that kudos to you on your journey! :manoyes:doso

If you dont stop sparring or at least slow down when some one hits your glasses with a finger or such or the same happens to the throat protection you arent trainign realisticly.. your doing it "superman style" , josh barnett (one example not the only example!) got accidentily hit in the eye by cro cops eye in their last fight... he imediatly tapped out, lost of sight excruciating pain and lost positioning... he was on top mount. about "us" leaving the head up there and leaving the throat open.. again the purpose is NOT to hit the throat, it is to make it harder for the oponent to dodge a high atack, side of the neck is very good especially if you hit that artery... but a clinched fist wont do the trick.





well like i said a training session where only one of the guys is going full speed seems more like BS to me than when both people are cooperating towards learning and not actualy fighting.



i already know what equipemnt you use and how you train, but if you can clinch with someone while you are being rushed by 2 others all of them hitting you with power, especially in a static or held position like the clinch and your not in a corner... go to the ufc and make a killing! dana will make you a king! the tactics you mentioned are present in aikido with multiple atackers the punch and kick... ill try to be clearer if you are running forward trying to get to someone and that someone isnt static or running to you, if he is running to a side or backwards do you think you will try to punch or kick him? from what you wrote i suspect you clinch more than you hit from distance, and why? because its nearly impossible to figure out the distance if your oponent is running away from you, so you try to GRAB or CLINCH him, and THEN you try to hit him ... so running towrds the guy and trying to grab seems to a good plan and thats what is tried in aikido. if you watch the movie you posted about the road rage stuff... the guy running back literally pushes away a guy that went for a kick and he just poked a guy running toward him in the throat... so kicking and punching from distance while both runnin isnt effective, agreed?




:D yes i understand its easier to roll your eyes at something or someone than aknowledging them... but fact still remains and it was spread by both judoka and aikidoka randori with 4 judo bb and win by the one aikidoka, randori with a judoka and broke both his arms, so there might be more to the world than pads and bags or it can be "lol yeah, whatever!"




well i dont train for the ring, i train to be safe outside of the dojo and outside of the dojo i only have to be efective the first time!

domo

Why the hell were my posts deleted? Is it now against the rules to criticize aikido?



This is the Fallacy of Personal Experience which I seem to encounter on a daily basis. You believe your personal experiences are all there is, and everything else is irrelevant. The fact is that aikido has a reputation for being an ineffective martial art, whether you like it or not. It didn't earn this reputation by chance. Likewise, arts like boxing, MT and BJJ don't just randomly happen to have a reputation (and track record) for being effective.

I truly sympathize with your question, I honestly do, but really, I've got a full-time, actually, VERY, VERY full-time job, and spending hours translating just for the sake of clarification is not an option. There is a reason that a professional translator to translate Japanese into English charges 0.40 cts per word. Moreover, the entire article is multiple pages long. I just provided it because I was challenged on providing sources. I can back up everything I say, unless I specifically add it is speculation. That does not mean that such source material is either freely available, cheap, public, or a in a language that everyone understands. As aikidô is a Japanese art, its dominating literature is written in Japanese, just like it is for jûdô. While I am not an expert in aikidô literature, for jûdô at least the situation is that only a tiny tip of the existing literature exists in English. While I do address issues related to employing jûdô against other martial artists in my upcoming book, I do not explicitly deal with aikidô as it is not an aikidô book. I fought many practioners of other martial arts myself long before MMA was created using only jûdô. When I watch people such as Yoshida in MMA trying to employ jûdô, I mostly see the limits of the practitioner and not the limits of the art itself. A jûdôka who has never practised how to grip people who do not wear gi, will be enormously disadvantage, but that does not mean jûdô in itself does not have an answer. I've seen jûdôists having no or only deficient defenses against kicks or punches, and losing MMA matches, but again that is the weakness of the athlete not of jûdô. When I fought such matches using jûdô only, I had years of kyôkushinkai karate practise and thus knew what the impact and consequences were of being hit or kicked. Many green judoists underestimate such attacks or other martial arts. Underestimating any art or any attacker is plain stupid, irrespective of whether he is an athlete or a street fighter, a man or a woman, tall or short. Any SKILLED martial artist uses techniques which are suited and optimal or unexpected for their size, gender and training. I trust that this is the same for aikidô.

The aikidô syllabus or jûdô syllabus contain much more than what the average practioner, even the those with jûdô or aikidô backgrounds who participate in MMA or UFC know. That is also not surprise, since mastering EVERYTHING takes almost a life time. This constraints makes it difficult to form abjections or conclusions which can be extrapolated, when watching such fights. The limits of one practitioner indeed are not the limits of the art. But for the opponent to elicit and magnify the limits of that practitioner is a commendable strategy. Since practice in martial arts usually follows a certain pattern, some of those weaknesses can be anticipated. For example, since defenses against kicks and punches are not part of jûdô randori or testing material required for ranks below 5th or 6th dan, there is a reasonable chance that a jûdôka of lower experience who has never cross-trained will show important weaknesses in these areas, unless he trained at a club with a highly unusual practice program. Again, similar predictions can likely be made using aikidô as an example. At the end of the day, the identifiable components as critical in the mastership, skills and abilities of a martial arts practitioner, therefore relate more to 'supporting' aspects than to the core idea or principle of the art itself.

I would not say that the aikidôka I fought at the time were world top in aikidô, but they had similar weaknesses and strength. They had excellent tai-sabaki, body control, and some resisted common throws very well. In general, they also showed important weaknesses against the use of sutemi-waza and counter throws. In application of what I just described above, I do not blame aikidô for this, but the level of aikidô and its application by my adversaries, and likely the practice program they had followed.