Where does purple belt sit in BJJ grading? (...blue, purple, brown, black?)

How long does it take to get a BJJ Purple Belt?

Newaza wise, what is the equivalent Judo belt?

No flames please. This is a serious question.

in bjj competition that allows judokas the blackbelts in judo compete against blue belts

generally speaking*

Have you read this thread?

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=16038

1) (White, Blue, Purple, Brown, Black). But the grading tends to be further apart. Takes years to ear Blue

2) Alot of years. There is no definate answer but from alot of posts I've read and BJJ guys I've talked to 5 or 6 years seems to be average.

3) Hard to tell. There are non-competitive Judoka who are above shodan and Elite Judoka who are Shodan. It is really depending on who the person is.

EDIT: 3) In skill or technique? you have to know and be able to apply other techniques not allowed in Judo competitions so some Shodans will overlook leg locks and ankle locks almost entirely. Skill-wise see above.

My BJJ instructor earned his Purple belt after 8 years of consistent/hard training.




Oh and his instructor just earned his Black Belt after 15+ years of training.

It took him 8 years of constantly training 6-7 times a week?

No flames, I promise.

I have heard on average it can take 4-5 years to get a purple belt in BJJ but that really depends on the individual. Not everyone can get there.

Newaza wise, I do not think there is an equivalent. Other than for top level Judoka's, when all physical traits are equal I don't think a Judoka of any rank could beat a purple belt in newaza under their rules.

4-6 years for purple, training 3-4 times per week at my academy (Renzo Gracie). Some do it in 2 years, others, longer. There is no equivalent ranking in judo on the mat imho.

This has been done about a thousand times. There's no direct comparison, simply because ranks vary so much in judo. A judo shodan could be a recreational guy with 10 years experience, or an olympic gold medalists. Most recreational judoka wouldn't last long against a BJJ purple under BJJ rules, but there have been competitive judoka who do very well (for instance on Sherdog there's a video posted on the grappling forum of a judo black belt Kunou who submitted a BJJ black belt Mica in a grappling competition, and one of the grapplers representing Brazil in ADCC is a judoka).

If you take it out of pure grappling you also have judo BB's like Fedor beating BJJ BB's like Big NOg ... though really, once you get to elite levels all bets are off anyway.

It is down to the individual and a lot of equations but 3 to 6 yrs seems an average. I have trained with an exceptionaly gifted athlete who got his purple in 2 1/2 half years from no training. But that is very rare and most of us mortals have a long road but personaly I don't think about aquiring belts just keep your head down and enjoy your training.

I think both promotion systems are flawed. I know a friend who is a Judo Nidan and BJJ Purple Belt. Everyone in his BJJ club always asks him to show them throws and take downs from Judo and he taps almost everyone except a couple Black Belts but is still a Purple Belt and he is nationally Ranked in Gi and No Gi events. Then I know people who are Godan and Rokudan in Judo who couldn't throw a White Belt or walk on the Mat without breathing heavy.

My question is, do they have any competitive promotions in BJJ, like Batsugun in Judo?

Train Hard, Stay Safe
Good Luck

Daniel san: What color Belt do you have?
Mr. Miagi : Canvass $2.29, you like?

It depends on the fighter it could be a Judo green belt and a BJJ black belt and the green belt might win its doubtful but theres always chances.

Do remember Masahiko Kimura a Judo black belt beat Helio Gracie the creator of BJJ by submission in i think it was 1952.

Yes Kimura did win, but Helio was the definite underdog.

Straight from Jufo info "Masahiko Kimura (1917-1993), judo 7th dan obtained at age 29, is undoubtedly the greatest Judoka to ever live. He stood 5'6" (170 cm) tall and weighed 185 pounds (84kg). "

He was bigger, stronger and more explosive than Helio. He was also the "greatest Judoka ever to live". I don't think Helio could say the same about BJJ.

Kimura's weight was 200 kg while Helio's was 50 kg!

;-)

1 kg is roughly 2.2 lbs. 200 kg is about let's say 440 lbs. Kimura was big, but not that big. LOL

Beyond that, Helio asked for the fight and lost so he has to deal with that. Despite what people say about the Gracie's they are awesome fighters, and their family is committed to keeping the art alive. Very few people can say that their entire family is committed to keeping anything alive. I give the Gracie's a lot of respect for that reason. Win or Lose they still fight, and create more and more fighters and participants in Judo, BJJ, GJJ, MMA and what ever else. They are responsible for the resurgence of the Martial Arts whether you want to give them credit or not.

Yasuhiro Yamashita Greatest Fighter Ever 9 time All Japan Champion = I beat everyone in Japan 9 years in a row when Japan was producing the best Judoka in the world. Not including Olympic and World Medals he won over 200 (TWO HUNDRED) straight matches without a defeat. Also, think about the period in which Yamashita fought in. I can think of some pretty tough guys and he beat them all.

Train Hard, Stay Safe
Good Luck

taiotoshi was being sarcastic -- it's a dig at BJJ fanboys.

A myth apparently, started by Rorion Gracie, claims that Kimura was about 80 lbs heavier than Helio Gracie. Kimura was, in reality, slightly heavier and slightly shorter than Gracie.

Scroll down to read that portion of Rorion Gracie's 1989 interview in Playboy: http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/bjj/bad.html Also notice him misrepresenting the way the fight ended -- he implies that Carlos threw in the towel after Kimura was squeezing Helio's head "like an over ripe melon" (i.e. in brutish fashion), rather than after breaking his arm in a skillful application of technique. This is part of the reason (Wh)orion is so reviled.

Other than for top level Judoka's, when all physical traits are equal I don't think a Judoka of any rank could beat a purple belt in newaza under their rules.
[/quote]

Wow that is a pretty bold statement to make and very generalized...

By whom?

Google Whorion/Whorian and look for yourself.

Basically, he's an extremely strong-willed, self-promoting guy. He's sort of the Don King of BJJ/MMA. He was a very significant factor in creating modern MMA through the UFC (which he co-founded). But his marketing methods were not the most honest or seemingly fair, to say the least. For example, the UFC was originally a marketing tool to sell B/GJJ and was basically a setup. As another example, he trademarked Gracie JJ and tried to keep his cousins from using that name.

Well, not being a top level judoka (I fought at the nationals but never placed), I've been able to draw several purples and a brown (not to mention just about every blue I've ever rolled with). Of course, draw means getting side control and holding them in a pin until the instructor said to change partners. Arguably under their rules I'd have lost for stalling ...

I wouldn't really consider that drawing BJJ purple belts. They would really have no reason to get out of the pin because in their rules it doesn't mean anything. Now if you were subbing BJJ purples that would be a different story.

Side question: Why were you holding them in a pin? Was this at a BJJ or Judo club?

Judo club. And you're right, they didn't put much effort into getting out of them. Moreover, I got the pins directly out of throws, so arguably it wasn't newaza competition either ... the outcome might have been quite different if we'd started knee to knee. You're also right about subbing them, they had much nice subbing technique than I do. In fact, as I've said before, I'm a shodan in judo but my sub technique probably isn't even on par with a BJJ blue belt. But my control is considerably better than the blue belts I've worked with (possibly because I wrestled for a long time too - I find BJJ blues move very slowly, so usually I"m well past their guards before they start to react ... purples and browns are much better at control than blues), so I defend very well on the ground.

Wow... much respect to you. When you were talking about drawing a brown belt bjjer and lots of purples in newaza I thought you might be just blowing steam, good thing I didn't just snap at you. I can definately see you controlling them, especially after a throw.

I would agree with you on the control issue. A judo shodan even without the wrestling should have more control because of the higher focus on pins in Judo compared to BJJ. Your wrestling backgroud just gives you a huge advantage over other judoka.

Anyway, Good job Holding down purples isn't an easy job.

You can get a black belt in Judo being a specialist in standing fighting only.

By the same token, you could, like me, be totally retarded at stand up, and get your black belt for being good at newaza, which I am.

In some cases a guy with only a blue belt in Jiu-jitsu could destroy a judo black belt on the ground; in others a Judo black belt would beat a Jiu-jitsu black belt.

But, let's keep in mind the rules difference. A jiu-jitsu man has a big advantage playing under his own rules. A judo man has an enormous advantage playing under our newaza rules (such as long pins counting for victory).

But on the whole, the BJJ folks had better darn well be better at newaza under their rules!!! And, we had better be better under our own!

Train consistently and do LOTS OF RANDORI!!!

I completely agree that my statement is bold and generalized so let me clarify a bit.

Other than for top level Judoka's when all physical traits are equal I don't think a Judoka of any rank that has only done Judo could beat a purple belt in newaza under BJJ rules.

That is not meant to be a slam on Judo because there are many in Judo that have excelled in newaza and are great. It's just that BJJ purple belts are better as a whole. Considering the amount of time/experience a BJJ purple belt would have on the ground they should be.



I know my statement was bold but the qualifying point to my bold statement was under their rules. Though, I'm not sure if you were rolling under BJJ rules that pinning and holding someone there is considered stalling. I'd have to look that one up.

I am sure you are excellent in newaza and my post was not an attempt to start a flame war or diminish your ability in newaza.

I don't think (personal oppinion) a judo black belt would beat a jiu-jitsu blackbelt in newaza unless the Judo blackbelt was a high-high-high level competitor. Of course people do get lucky.

A judo man does not have a huge advantage playing under Judo newaza rules against a BJJ guy. All the BJJ guy has to do is Pull you in his guard and sit there for 30 seconds and the fight is over.

Sanae Kikuta

I don't get your point?

A Japanese Judoka won the 2001 ADCC in the 88 kg class. But he was not a pure judoka by that point, I believe. He's certainly a cross-trained professional MMA fighter now.

Yeah he's an MMA figher, hardly a pure Judoka. Especially as it states that "To date all ADCC champions have had some training in Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu". So he was still a Judo/BJJ hybrid as long as many other styles.

Well, a lot of the Brazilian BJJ blackbelts also have judo black belts (including the Gracies) ... and others have wrestling as well. Very few of them are pure BJJ.

I'm still figuring out how the BJJ black belt pulling a judoka into his guard under judo rules is going to end the match. Or for that matter, given judo rules, how it's going to last 30 seconds before the ref calls matte? Did you mean to say under BJJ rules? Under judo rules pins count, and there isn't a lot of time for involved groundwork, both are advantages for judoka vs BJJ'ers. Under BJJ rules BJJ'ers win almost all the time, under judo rules judoka win almost all the time. Take a look at ADCC and olympic judo results ...

Under Judo rules, If a bjjer and Judoka both started on the ground (Since this is newaza only) It wouldn't be too hard for the BJJer to to just lay on his back and wait with his legs facing his opponent for 30 seconds.

Except how does that end the match?

What are the ADCC rules? I'm assuming they're pretty close to BJJ rules. I.E. favor submissions more than throws.

We're talking about rules, Which would imply tournament rules, which would imply there is only 30 seconds on the ground if they are playing by Judo Rules. Hence after thirty seconds it would be a draw.

Actually, in the judo newaza competitions I've seen (and there are a few, one in our province for instance), they don't stop the match for inactivity on the ground. Presumably you could stall for the full five minutes, but then it would go to a judges decision ... I'd guess they'd vote against whoever looked like they were stalling.

Besides, I wonder how many BJJ black belts would consider a draw against your typical judo black belt on the ground a satisfactory outcome, even under judo newaza rules. I suspect most would walk away quite dissappointed unless they were up against international level judoka, and even then would hope to win in a pure ground competition, judo rules or not.

Chances are though, that the BJJ black belt would be able to get somthing on the Judo BB. Personally I find Judoka more susceptible to sweeps than BJJers so The BJJ blackbelt might be able to sweep into an advantageous position.

Anyway this is all just a personal oppinion. I think in Just pure ground newaza the BJJer has the advantage (as long as he knows the rules). Now if you count standing to ground I give the Judoka to the advantage. The only difference between BJJ and Judo rules that would matter much is that pinning. And I don't think it would be that easy to pin a BJJ black belt either. Again this is all just a personal oppinion.

I agree the BJJ black belt would have the advantage in groundwork against most judoka ... afterall, a BJJ black belt is an elite BJJ'er, whereas a judo black belt might be an elite judoka, but more likely is just a recreational guy.

I suspect BJJ black belts would be hard to pin, all things being equal, though in MMA it's not uncommon to see them getting caught in side control by wrestlers and held in Lay'n'Pray (hence the thousands of posts in Sherdog complaining about LnP). In a regular judo competition BJJers don't have time to work their techniques ... it's pretty easy to stall for fifteen seconds against anyone. In a judo newaza tournament they have more than 15 seconds, so they'd do very well. Just not as well as under BJJ rules because judo groundwork tournaments tend not to have any stalling rules (and it's possible to stall in someone's guard just by fighting defensively.

I've been able to do this against BJJ'ers with a lot better technique than I have just by keeping a solid base and playing defensive - in a BJJ tournament I'd be penalized for fighting defensively, in the judo ground tournaments I've seen it's quite acceptable). You can watch Couture vs Jacare for an example of how that plays out (not that I'm at Couture's level, but the guys I was fighting weren't at Jacare's level either). BTW, I think there should be stalling penalities in judo ground tournaments ... as I've said, it's pretty easy to stall otherwise against almost anyone your own weight and roughly your own ability.

As well, the ground hold do make a difference in strategy, since pins tend to be a lot easier to get than submissions, and BJJ'ers aren't especially trained to avoid them simply because they're not a big deal in BJJ.

These threads all end up with people trying to compare the "belts" of each style based on how one might fare against the other in a match or in sparring. As we all by now should realise - that is pretty pointless and leads only to dumb debates and/or flame wars. DONT look at this as being "a XX belt in judo could therefore beat a YY belt in BJJ" - THAT much will always depend on the individuals involved as well as the rules involved.

You can only generalise by saying a BJJer is going to be better on the ground because they spend more time there. A judoka will more often beat a BJJer in judo comps, a BJJer will more often beat judoka in BJJ comps - with exceptions in cases, of course.

I've trained at BJJ clubs and have been tapped & struggled against white belts. I've also tapped & dominated purples - it doesnt mean because I personally as a shodan might be equivalent to a blue in BJJ - ALL judo shodans must therefore be the same.


Anyway - trying to answer the question in the spririt in which it was asked:

Generally gradings in BJJ go white, blue, purple, brown, black.
You usually progress through a belt by getting "stripes" - up to 4 and you are almost at the next level.

Unlike judo, however, BJJ lacks a consistent grading syllabus and it is up to the instructor to create one - or promote as they see fit.

It is not uncommon for an instructor to not to do a "grading", but rather to award the next grade after the student consistently proves themselves in training, or does well in competition. They just observe the student and decide whether they deserve a promotion.

Thinking a bit differently here - but I'm not going to compare belts in BJJ to how they might fare against a judoka, rather - a comparison of each's own hierarchy.

This is the way I see it

*White in BJJ compares to White-Orange in judo.
-From beginners to reasonably skilled and knowledgeable

*Blue in BJJ compares to Green-Blue in judo
-Intermediate level. Can be very strong

*Purple in BJJ would be Brown in judo
-Very good level. Quite a senior rank, a "serious" practicioner

*Brown in BJJ would be Brown-Nidan in judo
-Very senior. Close to the top rung. In-depth knowledge &/or ability

*Black in BJJ would be Nidan/Sandan & upwards in judo
-The instructors of the very advanced

Judo, you have very cool posts except the 'bjjer being better on ground so convincingly'. In what? Grappling?

A tuff judoka will pound out a tuff bjjer on the ground and not worry about the rest of the 'other' ground if we wanna keep it simple.

Somthing doesn't seem right here. You've been tapped by white belts who probably have less than two years of training and you "Dominate" BJJ purple belts who have been training for over 5 years. In BJJ you get grading when you are deemed fit by your instructor, by beating other jujitsuka of your belt level and higher and by competitions. Yet you "struggle" with white belts.

_____
I'm definately not saying your lieing, because that would be ignorant of me. I do however not see how this is possible.

HAHAHA. Guilloitne. Us judoka got smoked by it. At the club anyway.LOL

Size, nonlinear hierarchies etc. I'm sure he's also using some hyperbole on both ends.




You absolutely have the right idea. However I'd probably bump each of the above three up a notch, particularly purples.

There is a 4-stripe white belt at the BJJ club who has very long legs and plays a very good guard game, with an excellent triangle from guard. I always seem to struggle against him, those darn long lanky legs just catch me. He's dedicated, trains hard and competes. He's there ALL the time.

The purple I have rumbles with is my age, but seems more recreational... He isnt as fit, it not there every time I am, is shorter than me and I can overpower him more easily. His guard defense isnt as good, maybe as I have the length advantage, so I seem to be able to get mount more easily.

Is it really so hard to believe? Dont get so tied up in the colour of the belt.

I dont say this is the norm. I'm not claiming to be dominating all purples - just this one. An in no-gi I'm getting smoked by them, although in gi I can give them a decent run.

Again - we seem to be getting tied up in the BJJ vs Judo debate. It is all crap. It's not like an exchange rate - you cannot compare one currency with another.

I'm surprised they do better in nogi with you than gi.

Funny how this topic arises every few weeks.

Anyhow, I was reflecting on how long it took me to earn my (Adult) Judo Brown Belt. I started Judo at age 10-11 and completed my Brown Belt Grading at age 24ish. So what's that, about 12 years as an 'Average' competitive primarily recreational Judoka?

I commenced BJJ in 1999 and was graded as BJJ Purple in 2004 (i think), so that was 5 or 6 years. Added to the 5-6 years of pure BJJ training, one need take account of my prior Judo training, which was about 17 years worth upon commencing BJJ. Previously I've suggested that maybe 20% of my Judo training has directly translated into my BJJ game, and using that ratio, that would suggest I had a 3 or 4 year head-start on my BJJ collegues. All up that would point to bw 8-10 years of effort to earn my BJJ Purple Belt?

Could I have earned my Judo Brown quicker than I did? Well yes, but I didn't.
Could I have earned my BJJ Purple quicker than I did? Well yes, but I didn't.
Was I appropriately graded in both martial arts? Yes.
Could I be used as a yardstick to measure one's competitiveness in either art? Yes.
If a wrestler was to beat me, what grade should he be? That's an easy one, White belt, until such time he Grades higher.

While the skill aquired and developed in grappling arts (particularly BJJ and Judo) are complementary, the grading requirements for each have distinctly differences. As a Judo Brown Belt I could 'beat' Judo Black Belts in competition (did so on a number of occassions), but that didn't mean I wasn't a real Judo Brown Belt or the Black Belt didn't deserve their rank, rather that I was the better competitor on the day.

Similarly, as a BJJ Purple, I've beaten/dominated higher grade players on occassions (not at competition, because BJJ Competition divisions are typically set by age, sex, weight AND grade). Again, the fact that I have occassionally walked off with wins verses my similarly graded peers doesn't mean they weren't worthy of their grade nor that I should be a higher grade, rather I was the better competitor on the day.

Testing oneself against a handful of players in another style might enable you to judge your competitiveness relative to grades in that style, however you run the risk that your sample isn't typical of the wider population. As I touched on earlier, typically Grades are indicative of more than just an individuals competitive ability, so comparisions between grades of different styles is tantamount to comparisions between apples and oranges, utimately fruitless .

^^^ Judogido has just taiotoshi'ed the correct and finished it off with an inverted heel hook from half guard


Blue, purple, brown, black - whatever - belts: something to be proud of. But not unbeatable by any means. I too have smoked thru a few blues and been *utterly* killed by white 2 or 3's.

Remember that *strength*, *mass*, *flexibility* (ie: attributes) are their own martial art . So the difference between BJJ white 2 and Judo BB can be light years or nanometres.

Truthfully, I'm not suprised anymore by this. We've all seen adult judo green belts, who after a year on the mat are giving shodans hell, through 'just enough skill' and 'tons more strength/mass'. Of course, it still hurts the pride a bit to be thrown / submitted by such folks. Then again...why someone's pride is tied into a learning situation (randori)...yeah - different topic. I'd argue there's a whole (very negative impacting) culture about 'who kicked who's ass' out there on the mat that actually *retards* progress.

A very interesting but entirely different topic.

I've run across this too. In fact, to throw out another probably unfair generalization, my observation is that wrestlers (especially) and judoka tend to be stronger and faster (though less flexible) than BJJ'ers. The BJJ'ers I've worked with comment on how strong I am, even when I think I'm working very relaxed by wrestling standards (ie I'm not working up a sweat). I suspect that a lot of my success (at least defensively) against them is because of that ... and I'm trying to tone it down.

Wrestling and judo tend to reward strength, conditioning and speed (I know judoka hate to hear this, but it's true). BJJ less so, so many BJJ'ers are caught off guard when they first work against wrestlers and judoka. However, the higher BJJ belts (purple and brown) are experienced enough to deal with it.

I am a judo shodan and I am surely the equivalent worth of any Bjj purple....Oh yeah, might be because I also am a Bjj purple...


Try both. Really fun.

So Dutch you had 12 years training as a judoka to get to brown? what was you doing one session a week for most of that time,or did you have many rest periods.
I know we don,t really want to rush grades but training 2-4 time per week you will be a competetive blackbelt in 2or three years. you may not have all the gokyo masterd but you will know how to win at shia

As a member of the bja you would automatically be graded after five years of inactivity as long as you have continued your licence.

Can you not grade now and win points with your newaza skillls gradings are much more relaxed and allow more newaza time? check out youtube for black belt lineup and you will see two BJJ'ers earning their Judo black belts both were BJJ purple belts at the time.

sorry it was google heres the link http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=10...t+line+up&hl=en