What would you say was a comparable belt level ? (on newaza ability)

some say judo black is bjj blue, but i can not agree with this there are so many areas of the ground game that need to be understood and you need to be applying on your peers on a regular basis to show this.

My personal experience, i began bjj as a judo bb and was a bjj white belt for about a year .

i would class an average judoka 1st/2nd dan on the ground as compareable to a bjj white belt to maybe 2 or three stripes ,

you may not agreee ?

lets say it depends on the kind of judo training you got and how susceptible you are to learning ground techniques

OK but thats an open ended answer. lets try to nail this often asked question

I don't think there is a direct comparison. Its apples and oranges, just like when you try and compare any two arts/sports. Will a good sprinter make a good bobsledder? Probably but not 100% of the time. A good ne waza practitioner will probably be a better BJJ player than someone who is better at tachi waza.

A judo shodan can be anywhere between a BJJ white belt and BJJ brown belt in terms of playing BJJ.

I have been under the impression based on limited experience that a Judo shodan has equivalent grappling skills as an entry level blue belt in BJJ. Entry level as in, "I just got my blue belt two weeks ago". Now, to me that does not mean a Judo shodan is going to know as many submissions as a BJJ blue belt but from an ability standpoint I had been under the impression they would be similar.

Then again, I didn't know BJJ was putting stripes on white belts. The last time I was in a BJJ class was six years ago and as far as I knew the belts were white, blue, purple, brown, black. I find adding stripes on a while belt a curious thing. Does that mean that under the so called old system a white belt with one or two stripes used to be a blue belt? Has the proverbial bar been raised for blue belt? I would have thought that a Judo shodan would be able to achieve a blue belt in six months. That is not meant to be a knock on you. It just seems like the standards may have changed and now it's even more difficult to earn rank.

A black belt in judo can lose from white belt in BJJ:

1) under BJJ rules
2) when BJJ player has stronger muscles, better speed and more cardiorespiratory endurance
3) if a BJJ player is training for months (and maybe years) withougt promotions

Similar goes for a black belt in BJJ - who can also lose from white belt in judo...

Apples and oranges. All fruits!

Well, a Swedish judo black belt just won the European BJJ blue belt competition (under 100kg) and people said he was sandbagging. Same thing about the British judoka who won the British BJJ blue belt division.

By this thread, I'm assuming you meant they should have been fighting as BJJ white belts ... ie inverse sandbagging?

Also, Judo groundwork is a different set of skills at the early levels, with their top game and turtle attacks. It's unfair to compare based on BJJ rules.

That said, I usually go par with blue belts and I'm by no means a newaza player (nor a BB).

Your impression is quite common hence the question ,

my view is fom experience but some one elses may be diffrent

My judo newaza was quite good before my bjj training but it was very reliant on strength as i would be fair in saying a lot of judokas are. this took quite some time to change. i would submit all beginner whites and some blues but not purples this has now changed and i have a very advanced newaza game now and a very average tachi but that is my preference.




We don't have to compare the rules just fighting to submit.

See, in my opinion if you were able to hang with BJJ blue belts (and even make them tap on occasion) when you first started BJJ then in my mind you are a blue belt or at the very least have BJJ blue belt ability regardless of the color belt you are actually wearing around your waist. I would never expect a Judo shodan to be able to beat a BJJ purple belt unless that shodan was a high level competitor. Since you have been doing BJJ for a year or so are you able to hang with some purple belts?

Since my first exposure to grappling was in BJJ I always have and always will approach newaza the way most BJJ players I've rolled with approach it which is with a reliance on technique rather than strength.

Edit: I'm not saying that all Judokas use strength rather than technique in randori. I will say that Judoka's seem to have a very straightforward approach to newaza where as BJJ players tend to "flow" more if you know what I mean. It's just different. If I was forced to fight 10 grapplers (5 BJJ players and 5 judokas) without telling me whether their background was in Judo or BJJ I would be able to tell within 10 seconds if the guy I was fighting does Judo or BJJ.

I think it is this flowing and fluidness of movement added to the techniques that a bjj instructor is looking for in his students.

which is one reason why a shodan is not automatically a blue belt imo, he may tap the odd blue but he will be being tapped by blues and whites as well as the purples?

newaza only?

jb shodan = no stripe bjj blue

Just MHO from working at Oishi, Higashi, and Matsumara in Judo, and Renzo Gracie and Ricardo Almeida in BJJ.

Not at all, there are individuals at both ends of the scale.

but we are trying to find a average that most would agree to?

BJJ might be consistent enough in its ranks to make that meaningful, judo certainly isn't. There have been judo world and olympic champions who are shodans (the Soviets in particular never seemed to care about grading after shodan, prefering their international master of sport titles), and recreational yondans who've gotten their grades for teaching and refereeing ... how do you average differences like that? Averages can be useful if the distribution has a narrow spread, but there's nothing useful to be said about averaging judo black belts.

When I was a kid we had a visiting black belt come by - you couldn't tell anything about him by talking to him, or by looking at his gi or belt. Once he got on the mats we could see he was many cuts above our local black belts ... turned out it was Rainer Fischer, who placed 5th in the worlds at the time. But you had to watch or know him to access his ability, his rank told you nothing.

Agreed there is a huge inconsistancy in judo shodans as there are olympians who are shodan
and don,t bother to grade .

Judokas who say that bjj blue is judo black make this assumption from somewhere,

it is from visits to judo clubs for randori practice with b b's while a bjj white belt that i question this.

why dont we turn it around and ask what a bjj black belt is in judo? yellow? Maybe orange? Judos main focus is tachiwaza and from what i've seen in bjj im not impressed. they get an A+ in falling down on purpose and pulling guard though

that's because they (we) don't view a throw as such a definitive thing. So what, I'm on the ground, now you're choking!

what if i throw you and then i push myself away from you and try/then stand back up? what if my defense is practiced enough where even if i get a dominant position i dont want to go on, i just keep standing back up? not everyones a newaza specialist. im not gonna lie, their were times at a competition that i stood up and didnt continue on the ground. plus your thinking BJJ rules under judo rules, bjj is all about taking your time; its hard to do that in judo. we use speed and strength. maybe sounds like a bunch of brutes, but whatchya gonna do

another thread maybe?

but if you'r asking me i would say a fresh newbie bjj'er with no former judo is of course a judo white belt

where do you base your opinions on? they seem rather polarised. and you can always stand up even if you are caught in a backmount after a throw???

You'll never "nail down" the answer so easily.

I do the odd BJJ session. In gi-based, I've not been tapped for the last 3-4 sessions by the few purples & blues I fought. However, I was caught in a triangle by a 4 stripe white. I have also tapped blues on numerous occasions.

In no-gi, I was tapped by a black after giving my back within about 30 seconds (although I got the TD). I was also tapped numerous times by a purple (triangles and juji's from guard).

So, ME PERSONALLY, I'd say I'd be low blue), high white in no-gi (maybe less - I've only had the 2 sessions to compare), but a high-blue, low purple in gi. That's in fighting ability - not always synonymous with technical knowledge.

I know shodans that are stronger then me, and also weaker than me on the ground. So I would not be able to generalise the "level" of a shodan so easily.

If you were to press me, I'd say on average, a shodan in newaza = a BJJ blue in gi-based, a white in no-gi.

doubt it

thanks for your open account and ues we may never nail it but its good to see what others think

Right but grappling skills are more than just submissions. A judo shodan may not be able to submit his opponent as readily or in variety, but he should definitely be better than a blue belt in positioning (ie wrestling), top control, and attacks on the turtle. So while his submission ability may not be as high, his grappling skillset is no less as broad.

I would say the average judo black belt is a white belt in karate too. He would probably even be a white belt in aikido. Why not BJJ?

BTW, officially I am a white-belt 0-stripe in BJJ & that is what I wear to BJJ class.

If I wanted to advance - I'd have to train/compete/do gradings like any other n00b - the only difference being I have the advantage of some previous experience, so I might advance a bit faster.

There is no real accurate XX in judo is equivalent to YY in BJJ, no matter what anyone says.

Yeah, but RTIF you do MMA, so you should be pretty well aware of how hard it is to get someone to the ground in the first place without great takedown skills. Ask folks who've fought Liddell and Crocop about how vital takedowns are

Donno about that but as an Ikkyu in Judo I used to randori regularly with BJJ black belts and had little or no trouble defeating them. We traded a lot of techniques often. Usually I showed them chokes and wierd Kansetsu Waze entrys and they showed me some real neat leg locks and arm bars. Had a lot of BJJ BBs come to our dojo to study standing.
In Judo we have Instructors who hold back rank so that their students look tougher and better than other schools. We had one guy who was a brown belt for eleven years! Sensei suggested that he test for BB or become a permanent Shime Waza uke!
After making Shodan in Judo I studied Aikido for a year with an Instructor who didn't like Judokas. I never got promoted but used to randori with his BBs and could hold my own. Of course we randoried only when the Instructor wasn't around. He didn't like randori.
Belt ranks are for beginners to know who to go to for guidance and instruction.
Ed

Wait....so you "had little to no trouble" beating BJJ black belts, but could only "hold [your] own" against Aikido black belts who weren't even allowed to randori? At my BJJ school we randori 75% of the class time every class time, and in Judo atleast 50% of the class time most of the time.

Something is a little off here...

These are my own experiences as a Judo BB competing BJJ

In 2002 I entered a BJJ comp that was being held locally. I told the organisers I was a Judo BB and they put me in the Blue Belt category.

My judo training was for competitions and I trained accordingly i.e. 90% stand-up.

I had not trained BJJ and didnt know the rules! In that event I had 3 fights W2 L1.

I threw everyone with ease, but once on the floor things were much more even.

Following this event I started training BJJ on a regular basis and last trained specifically for Judo in 2003

After winning the next event at Blue Belt, I was awarded my blue.

I competed as a Blue belt in many BJJ competitions (adults and senior 1 & 2) including the Pan Ams, Mundials and Masters & Seniors. As a rough estimate I'd say I was about W30 L6.

It is a very difficult question to answer because there are so many variables to be taken into consideration, but I would say an average Judo BB should compete at Blue. Elite level Judoka would hang with most Purples and some browns, but would need to do some specific work to be able to compete with elite level BJJ BB's.

I think you raise a good point. I have known BJJ white belts, and I'm talking about guys that have been doing it for less than six months, that seemingly more know submissions than a Judo shodan but it doesn't matter because the ability to apply them isn't there.

Dear Ed,
I took a look at your profile and it says you were born in 1939 and you have been doing Judo for 30-40 years. If that is accurate then you started doing Judo between 1967-1977 and you may have been an ikkyu somewhere in between this time or in the early 80's. I would think BJJ is different today than it was 30-40 years ago. BJJ today is like open source software development where people are continually adding new techniques to what is an already existing cirriculum.

What I find most interesting about your post is that you were training with BJJ black belts as an Ikkyu which seemingly would have been many years ago (many years ago to me because I'm only 32). Do you recall their names by chance? Does anyone know how long the Gracie's or the Machado's (or other BJJ families) have been in the United States?

My reply to you is not meant to be in any way a disrespect to your ability or accomplishments in Judo.

I agree entirely.

A decent Judo BB can be coached to fight BJJ Blues / purples in a couple of sessions. To fight BJJ rules a Judoka needs to understand the basic BJJ strategies. A Judo BB might lose easily to BJJ blues but after a couple of training sessions they should get the jist and thing start to even up.

The main risks for a Judoka:

Rolling onto your front when a person passes your legs (Guard). This gives BJJ guys an easy choke and the referee will not stand you up if the fight stalls.

When in between an opponents legs (i.e. in Guard) allowing yourself to be pulled down by the BJJer. The Judoka needs to keep an upright posture and a good base.

Sankaku Jime - Learn the basic escapes/defenses.

But what if I can strike? I'm not underestimating takedowns. All my MMA success was pretty dependent on them. BUT...if I can strike, and I can fight on the ground, I don't much care if the other guy wants to take me down. I'll try to hit him on the way in, and if I get slammed, I'm happy on the ground. People have a harder time hurting me there.

A fight between me and Chuck would look like Liddell-Horn II in fast forward. I'd love to think that with tons of preparation, I could take down or hold down Liddell, but it just isn't in the cards, and we all know I wouldn't be able to hang on the feet. But there is ALWAYS the chance. Guys like that DO underestimate subs. Jeremy submitted him once. That, I think is what keeps people stepping into the ring. Liddell has many more weaknesses than people think, but he's so able to play to his strengths in a fight he looks unstoppable.

uhh... maybe learn real judo? judo is a very technical sport. With 2 very strong guys, a difference in technical level is key.


This line is just soooooo wrong. Low level judo maybe but when you've really grasped the principles, i wouldn't say so. I'd like to go on but that's for a different thread already.

Yep. Competitors (even if not olympians) National level (talking USA or CANADA here) are gonna be troubles on the ground. Especially the ones that love newaza.

I'm a purple, and I fought few comp. shodan. The most recent was a bit heavier than me and fluid. I would attack alot and he would escape my subs and reverse the position. Was quite skilled at half guard.

So the match was a draw...On the other hands, you have some occasionnal competitors. They are pretty much easy free rides in newaza.

Just my experience however.

Something is certain, I would add something to the shodan test eligibility. In order to receive your judo black belt, you would have to earn purple belt in bjj. With judo experience, its not that long. Took me like 2 years at 4-5 times a week.

If you keep standing up, then I'm not busy getting hurt. You seem to think you're "winning" by failing to engage. It it was a you/me situation, you'd have to be dealing with my striking as well as my grappling. Add to that the consideration that I may well be taking YOU down. Add to that the consideration that I might not LET you up. Add to that the consideration that you might not be able to see after I drop a couple elbows in your eyes. Add to that the consideration that while I might be content to take my time on the ground, it's nothing but a flawed assumption that I can't go fast and hard. Thing is, on the ground especially, a good grappler (from any art) is so technical they don't have to be brutish. You show such ignorance in every one of your posts, it really makes me sad. Judo isn't about speed and strength, and neither is BJJ. Those things help, but technique is always most important. You have SUCH a shallow knowledge of BJJ, and you're giving it NONE of the credit it deserves, and only you come out looking bad for it. BJJ has proven itself. So has Judo. It's now down to individuals. And the open minded ones are winning.

I call bs. The number of BJJ BB's in america probably only broke a hundred within the last 5 years.

Sure, but it works the other way too. I boxed for years before starting judo ... I'm very comfortable striking. And I'm very hard to take down because of judo (and wrestling). So I could argue "why would I bother learning ne-waza? You're not going to get me to the ground anyway, and I'm very happy on my feet."

In practice I like newaza, so I do it anyway. But if you can strike you only need one of groundfighting or takedowns (takedown defense comes automatically with takedown ability in my experience ... any wrestler or judoka who gets good at throws/takedowns is going to be good at avoiding them too). Though I guess we could also say that if you have good takedowns and groundwork then you can do with less striking as well ... though ultimately the best are good at all of it (Fedor for instance).

Wouldn't want to fight Liddell myself, though if I did I'd probably be happier punching than grappling (he was a division one wrestler, which could be a real pain) ... my leg kick defenses are pretty spotty, so he could catch me on those, though I don't remember seeing him throw a lot of kicks.

In the end it's probably just best to get good at all of it though

Because Shitte happens. You could have the best takedown defense in the world, and accidentally slip.

I posted this in another topic and meant it for this one also.

As black belts and instructors in Judo we should be improving our skillsets and the abilities of our students. Pick up a book or a DVD on BJJ go to a couple of clinics and pick up a few things. Work on ways to beat the guard and improve your passes and submissions. It isn't that hard and its not like we don't already have a solid newaza base to start. Stop saying BJJ v Judo is this and Judo v BJJ is that just go out and compete. If they want you to compete in a blue belt division then wax the floor with as many as you can. I bet the next time you go to a BJJ event they will move you up to brown belt. More importantly you are on the mat competing. Its a great chance for you to prove to yourself that all that time in a gi is worth it. They don't penilize you for throwing then standing up then throwing them again. Keep doing that till you get dominate position and submit them. Learn the rules. For those of you that want more dynamic matches BJJ are just that continous shai for 5 -7 minutes. Bring your gas tank and go have fun. Oh and if you lose its your own fault for not training harder. Go back to the dojo evaluate the lose and fix it.

every comp i was in i had to use fast speed and somewhat use alot of strength to try and get a sub, we didnt have THAT MUCH TIME, COMPS GIVE NO TIME HARDLY FOR GROUNDWORK. thats how i felt, and thats my opinion, and i dont think what i've experienced is wrong. in class doing ne waza when im with some partners and we're specificlally doing groundwork i take my time and dont brute it out. i think my judo is just fine thank you very much.

Is tennis better than badminton ?Is soccer better than volley ? Is red wine better than white ? Is Gandi bettre than ML King ? Is U2 better than the Stones ? Is "do" better than "jitsu" ?

Who will tell....?

True, though that's a reason for being good at all three: takedowns, ground and striking. You could have great standing, then run across someone with better standing and be screwed because you don't have the ability to take the guy to the ground, or you could have great takedowns and ground but run into someone with as good takedowns (or defense) with better standing than you, etc. The best approach is to be good at all of them (and then you run across someone like Fedor who's better than you in all three ... which is why corner's have towels to throw in ).

If this question was turned around, how would a BJJ BB do against a Judo BB when it comes to throws. Where would they start at? White, Orange, Green?

I think in this discussion a lot has to do with the time in rank. How long someone spends in a particular Rank has a lot to do with their development. People never seem to race through BJJ ranks like they can in Judo sometimes.

Another question that I would have to be ask would be, How do you gauge the effectiveness of someone's technique when the games rules are a little different. Most Judo Players not all, wouldn't have a problem with someone on thier Back defending against a Choke or a Turnover, But might be a little uncomfortable on their back with someone in their Guard on Holding them in a Pin. Where in BJJ just the opposite tends to be true.

Interesting discussion either way.

Train Hard, Stay Safe
Good Luck

having speed and/or strength is fine. Thinking that's what defines judo is not. What you posted was the exact OPPOSITE of what judo is about. Yes, competition rules don't give much newaza time, and that might lead to increased hustle in those positions in competition, but that doesn't define judo as a whole, and doesn't mean judo is about using strength.

does that mean you are saying a bb judoka is a bjj wb



the problem that judo has ,if you could call it that is we should be or are expected to be good at tachi and newaza

and tachi is the favorite of the majority imo

to say that a judo bb should be equivalent of a bjj purple is not a bad idea it would give our bb more value and meaning than i think it has at present even if it takes 6-10 yrs or so to achieve as does a bjj bb.




Hi dave , you say compete at blue but does that mean they have the understanding of a bjj at blue or just ability to win a blue comp

Well, that's kind of an interesting question in itself. There have been a number of threads discussing the differences between competitive judoka and non-competitors. Quite a few folks have said that although competitive judoka are better in judo comps, most competitive judoka have less understanding of judo than non-competitors (ie less knowledge of the Gokyo, kata etc). You're asking almost the same question here ... is the ability to apply knowledge (ie win in competition) the definition of a good judoka (or BJJ'er), or is it the theoretical knowledge (which they may or may not be able to apply)?

In purely judo terms, is a world champion who knows no kata and only say twenty throws as good a black belt as a guy who can't fight worth beans, but knows all the kata, throws etc. You get a huge variation in answers on this forum on that one.