Just went through a bunch of articles and found some interesting opinions on BJJ vs Luta Livre by people who have practiced both. Here it goes

Alexandre Carracerro(student of Hugo Duarte and Beto Leitao, ADCC, and now trains under the Brazilian Top Team)-He believes that BJJ is on the whole on a higher technical level than luta livre. Alexandre thinks this is because more people are involved in BJJ

Various Gracie Barra Combat Team members- Renato Sobral(luta livre student under Beto Leitao, now does BJJ with GBCT)-Believes that BJJ is more technical than luta livre and is now a believer in gi training. His ground game has gone through the roof since he has joined Gracie Barra and since he joined the team most of his wins are from submissions. Overall his groundgame is now much mre effecient and in one of his fights he jumped up and down screaming Gracie Jiu-jitsu and in his post fight intrerview he simply stated, he showed him what Gracie Jiu-jitsu is. He now has all his sponsors list him as a BJJ stylist on their sites.

Flavio Moura(former member of Budokan team now a part of GBCT)- His game has obviously changed and like Babalu his submission skills shot through the roof since training with the BJJ elites at GBCT. He has now won most of his fights by submission while before he was more of a ground and pound fighter. I have not seen any interviews where he compares the two arts although you can obviously tell by seeing his fights how BJJ has affected both.

Gustavo Machado(trained Luta livre under Beto Leitao, now part of GBCT)-Also seems to feel the same as Sobral.

Ivan "batman" Jorge(Former Luta Livre champ now a BJJ fighter and purple belt under the Carlson Gracie flag)- he has a lot to say about BJJ and luta livre. Here are some things I found from an interview.
"DENIS MARTINS: Talking about BJJ now... You were known more as a Luta-Livre fighter, but nowadays you are a BJJ practitioner. What changed for you to make this transition? BATMAN: I developed my game a lot. To train with a gi is important. I became a better submission and MMA fighter after my start in BJJ. I adapted my game of gi to no-gi and also to MMA. I realized I had more options during a fight and I was also more agile. I didn't have this in Luta-Livre, as I just had the strength to take an opponent down and try a submission."

"When you started at Carlson's gym, did you refuse to train with the gi? BATMAN: I came here to be part of the MMA team, but Manimal talked me into training with the gi because I would improve my submission and MMA game as well. I didn't believe it, but he insisted and I wore a gi to train for the first time. It was funny because a 60 kg fighter schooled me (I am 83 kg) during the trainings. It was then that I realized how important it was to train with a gi."

"DENIS MARTINS: Did you face anger from Luta-Livre fighters when you became a BJJ fighter? BATMAN: People from Luta-Livre talked to me a lot. I answered them back by saying that I wanted to open my horizons. Nowadays, you see several renowned Luta-Livre names training with the gi. I can tell you names such as Andre Gustavo 'Mau-Mau', Leopoldo Serao, Maicon Alarcao(who won BJJ Copa Rolls Gracie last weekend), Milton Vieira, and Alexandre 'Cacareco' Ferreira use the gi. The fans outside Rio de Janeiro's scene do not have an idea of how bad the rivalry was between these two martial arts (Luta-Livre & BJJ)."

"DENIS MARTINS: What can you tell us about BJJ philosophy? BATMAN: I thought of myself as a king when I was a Luta-Livre fighter. I overcame some BJJ fighters via my 'Bat Guillotine Choke' when I fought at BJJ vs. Luta Livre challenge events (MMA & submission). In reality, I was just once more fighter. In BJJ, I know that I have to learn each time I train in my life and I respect everybody. I learned this from the Carlson Gracie team. I'm a humble guy now and I have a family here. This is not simply Batman of the Carlson team; it is the team, the union."

Milton Viera(13 years of luta livre experience before becoming a part of BTT)-
"DENIS MARTINS: You're a Luta-Livre black-belt and since you became a BTT fighter, a lot of BTT fighters are using the anaconda-choke. Did you introduce it to them (at the BTT camp)? MILTON VIEIRA: First off, I need to make one thing clear; I don't come from that basic Luta-Livre where the guys just know ankle-locks and guillotine-chokes. I came from the JOP Luta-Livre team and the coach there was Jefferson Oliveira Pereira, a master with an open mind. He told me to train jiu jitsu, judo and wrestling - we don't have this in other Luta-Livre academies. Luta-Livre sweeps? I think it doesn't exist, you know, as it's not explored in the luta-livre academies. The luta-livre masters don't know my luta-livre coach enough. But if you ask Amaury Bitteti, Carlson Gracie, and Mario Sperry, they'll tell you that he's awesome. Man, I didn't introduce luta-livre here, I just supported the development of jiu jitsu without a gi."

Gesias "JZ" Cavalcante(Luta Livre Blackbelt and now a BJJ purple belt at ATT)-He has not been asked by an interviewer on his views of BJJ vs Luta Livre. He has stated that Liborio has greatly improved his guard game.

Alexandre 'Pequeno' Nogueira(luta livre champ who has trained with BTT)-He has never really been asked about BJJ compared to Luta Livre although he has competed in gi BJJ tournaments. I believe he still only teach luta livre at his academy though.

Ricardo Murgel-Started out in luta livre before going to BJJ. He has never been asked on his opinion of Luta Livre though.

here i am.
the man of 1001 questions

i am sure you all missed me.


lets get ready to rumble

1-the history of luta livre(wikipedia is not my friend)
2-the difference between luta and bjj (beside the gi and no-gi)
3-the trademark techniques of luta

and finally(sp?)
4-the pic of anaconda choke
5---------of bat guillotine choke

thanks
alex

italy

History of Luta Livre is unclear since many people where involved. It is believed to have been created around the 1920's and is though to be a combo of no-gi judo and catch wrestling. One of Helio Gracies first fights were against a luta livre guy. Luta Livre was able to gain one victory over victory over BJJ back in the day with Eugenio Tadeu knocking out a BJJ player. Most of the other matches seem to have been won by BJJ players although we do not know much about the history of brazilian mma here in the U.S. BJJ used to be divided into three parts Sport, Self defense, and vale tudo. Luta Livre is divided into Luta Livre Esportiva(sub grappling) and Luta Livre Vale Tudo(freefighting techniques). Although some Luta Livre academies teach sd. Luta Livre does not concentrate as much on the bottom game and several people say BJJ is more technical. Luta Livre is known mostly for its leg locks and guillotine chokes.
Anaconda choke
http://www.grapplearts.com/My-Mixed-Martia...ts-Download.htm
Batman guillotine choke is the same as a regular one.

Luta Livre fighter Euclides Pereira was able to beat the legendary Carlson Gracie in a Vale Tudo match on September 1968. It was reported that Pereira thrashed Carlson soundly without as much as a bruise on him for 5 rounds. There's disputing reports about this encouter. Carlson Gracie stated in interviews that the referee had unfairly awarded the victory to Euclides. However, other Brazilian sources say otherwise.
Former UFC champ Marco Ruas was reported to be a Luta Livre fighter as well as ex-Shooto lightweight champion Alexandre Franca Nogueira (he practically uses only the guillotine choke for submissions!) Basically, think of Luta Livre as a synthesis of wrestling, boxing, capoeira, judo, and muay thai. Luta Livre have also preferred to fight without a gi.

Most accounts I have heard of the fight was Euclides using his takedown skill and size advantage to lay and pray in Carlson's guard. Most also state that Carlson had a rear naked choke but Euclides jumped out of the ring to get the fight restarted. Marco Ruas used to train Luta Livre as well as BJJ with Osvaldo Alves. He was actually going to represent BJJ in a challenge match but the challenger backed out. The grappling coach of Ruas Vale Tudo is a luta livre guy. I simply see it like this. 95% of the BJJ vs Luta Livre matches ended in BJJ's favor. Many of the oldschool pure Luta Livre guys did not look to good in their fights(ex. Hugo vs Rickson, Kerr, and Tank, Tadeu's matches, the BJJ vs Luta Livre challenge). The majority of the top Luta Livre fighters have abandoned Luta Livre and now consider themselves BJJ practicioners(ex.Batman, GBCT) and many of them seem to feel that BJJ is a technically better art for different reasons(use of gi, amount of people involved or the art itself). The only fighters from Luta Livre that have been impressive seem to be Alexandre "Pequeno" and Johil De Oliveria. Besides that the only other guys that consider themselves Luta Livre and are doing o.k. are Marcio Cromado, Chocolate, and Luciano Azredo. That is just my personla opinion.

I think Johil Oliveira knows and uses a fair amount of BJJ in his scraps.

Considering that he has said himself that he has never trained it and he spends all of his time teaching at teaching at the Budokan I would say he does not use any. He came from the oldschool luta livre guys who did not crosstrain. He has an interview at Sherdog saying he does not train BJJ. No BJJ academies have ever claimed he trained with them either.

thanks to everybody


QUOTE< Basically, think of Luta Livre as a synthesis of wrestling, boxing, capoeira, judo, and muay thai.
>QUOTE

if you scrap capoeira it looks more like uwf(i) shootwrestling of tiger sayama.




it is very interesting but it is impossible to find something about luta on wikipedia or gooooogle.
there is something about luta olimpionica but no l.l.

Luta Livre Federation : http://www.lutalivre.net/index.php/home.html

Luta Livre is :

- Luta Livre Esportiva (no Gi submission grappling)
- Luta Livre Vale Tudo (luta livre esportiva + striking)
- Luta Livre Self Defense (technik36 program)

Luta Livre is very effective in real Vale Tudo :

http://www.valetudo.com.br/estatisticas.htm

I don't think you did your research very well.. You used examples of people who "adopted" BJJ after the twilight of Luta Livre Esportiva in Brazil...

You also mentioned Alexandre Pequeno, who IS NOT A BJJer and is on par with elite-level BJJers around the world... He is a God at newaza! But you only stated that he did not commented on "his" BJJ game... So your research was biased towards BJJ... You only account for those who said something in praise of their "new" art... This is not good research.

We have to remember that Luta-Livre Esportiva, summarizing, IS BJJ without the Gi. No BJJer would trains without the gi, and they all told Luta-Livre (Esportiva) was not technical, was wrong, etc. But today, with the rise of no-gi competitions like ADCC, the BJJ world "adopted" "no-gi" training, what the Lita-Livre people had been doing all around.

BJJ was also very averse to external influence... They didn't adopt other arts techniques (besides Judo...). Luta-Livre, on the other hand, adopted a lot of things from wrestling and boxing, and that's why they were better at takedowns (a lot better, just watch the fight between Eugenio Tadeu and Royler Gracie on youtube) and striking... But, on newaza, BJJ has always been more technical, but then this may well be due to much higher number of BJJer practitioners compared to Luta-Livre.

In other words, the martial art Luta-Livre was able to produce a newaza player as good as BJJ, but due to having less people practicing it the sheer amount of good BJJers overcame Luta-Livre.

BJJ also took over the "no-gi" (submission wrestling) ground... Displacing Luta-Livre, as if Luta-Livre never existed. No-gi/submission wrestling IS LUTA-LIVRE!

With dwindling numbers of practitioners in Luta-Livre, the great masters stopped being formed, and the old masters simply retired or died. This way people would have to go where the greatest masters of newaza were, and they were available at BJJ schools: the great BJJer instructors.

BJJ kept forming great instructors and Luta-Livre less. So, if you want now to learn the best newaza, you have to go to a BJJ school...

UNLESS you are lucky enough to train under Alexandre Pequeno. Alexandre is more technical in newaza than most elite-level BJJer today. He skill is unbelievable. I think he is at the same level of Marcelinho Garcia... And he is not a BJJer he is a Luta-Livre fighter. He runs a Luta-Livre school, but, BEHOLD!!! There are lots of BJJer training under him!!! It's now a matter of the individual instead of the individual's martial art!

My greatest friend who is a BJJ black belt instructor trains at Alexandre's academy whenever possible. He say it's amazing to see Alexandre submitting EVERYONE (including Ricardo Arona) very, very fast when rolling... bearing in mind that Pequeno, which is Alexandre's nickname means "Small", or "Little one"... Alexandre is VERY small in stature... Of course, this is not competition, but it tells us a lot regarding Alexandre's Luta-Livre skill (or should I say newaza?)

I think that training with the gi gives you more technical knowledge... But to face no-gi competitions you have also to train without the gi... Marcelo Garcia himself trains once a week without the gi... Luta-Livre ONLY trains without the gi... And have incorporated wrestling takedowns and moves plus boxing and other striking arts into their repertoire.

Looking from the outside, Luta-Livre seems more fitted to MMA and Submission Wrestling (it is, after all, submission wrestling), but, paradoxically we don't have the great masters of before teaching, and so, Luta-Livre does not spawn brilliant fighters anymore... BJJ took over completely.

In the end, the difference between Luta-Livre and BJJ had much more to do with the approach to the gi than technique-wise. Now that BJJ adopted wholeheartedly the no-gi "sparring", it has become very hard to differentiate both... If you watch a no-gi BJJ and a Luta-Livre class I bet you won't be able to tell the difference.

Funny how old threads pop up.

Can't comment too much because I don't have enough knowledge or background, but I did train at Nova Uniao in Flamengo during the summer. I only did the gi classes but in the morning Leitao ran a class. I spoke to Leitao a few times and he seems a very impressive man, I remember us watching judo from the Olympics one morning and he was very knowledgeable.

The guys would sometimes train with Leitao and do gi classes as well; their seemed to be a lot of respect and sharing of techniques. I can't imagine Andre Pederneiras would have let Leitao use his acadamy if he didn't value what Leitao had to offer.

He IS very knowledgeable!!! He is one of the great masters I was talking about... one of the few still alive/teaching.